MORE NO SHOWS FOR PILOTS

[AWA320]

AWA, I'm talking about asset purchases, which are a way around a merger.

I know for a FACT that when United Air Lines bought assets of Pan Am, the Orient operations, London Heathrow, and even South America, that part of the deal included the employees were to be brought over and slotted in with their seniority. I know of a few pilots (just retired actually) and some flight attendants (still flying) who have a HIRE date of 1985, but their DOH for seniority is their Pan Am date.

I know that Pan Am & National was a nasty merger, but lets also note that many outsiders feel the purchase of National is part of the downfall of Pan Am.

This stuff is really nasty, and it sucks because I know people on both sides of the fence... some of my closest friends at Great Lakes backin the '90s are now flying Cacti Airbii, and my 2 years at USAirways allowed me to meet many, many employees across the system.... I was optimistic when this merger was announced because to me, it worked. I thought this company was going to take the BEST OF BOTH and combine them, but unfortunately all I'm seeing is the WORST of EACH.

:/

I was talking about mergers not asset purchases. Yeah there just might be those that feel National did that but the truth of the matter is PAA needed feed and with UAL NWA and AA not feeding PAA int'l customers any more they were sunk. PAA failed in part because management made a deal with pilots that it really could afford to honor in order to avoid a strike. They were mortaged to the hilt and could not get anymore loans. PAA sold those routes UAL for $750million, the beginning of the End for PAA.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I actually thought the list would come out variable slotted, from top to bottom, with Save-a-Dave being put in right behind our '89 furloughed guys. Plus I thought the fences would be in PHX and LAS to protect the Senior AWA guys, and the senior F/O's about to check out, from senior east guys wanting to go west.

Nic handed us a mess. With just a little adjustment I don't think you would have the uproar you have now and we would all be moving forward.

I thought so too but you were more optimistic with regards to the bottom of the AWA list than I. Keep in mind, however, that the AWA's position was a direct result of the position espoused by your three PHL stooges and later argued by your NC. The East presented their case first and as a consequnce, the baseline was set so far from the 50 yard line that AWA had no choice than to argue straight slotting. I can guarantee that many AWA pilots would have preferred a mediated solution but it was the East that wanted to shove it down our throats. I also believe that there is still room for a discussion about East angst, but one thing which is not conjecture is that nothing will every progress as long as Jabba the Hut in PHL and the other two reps continue to set policy for the East. The arbitration is final and at some point both ALPA and the Company will see to it that it is implemented. That is a fact. The choice lies exclusively with the East: fix yourself or follow the PHL morons on their path to destruction.

 

[AWA320]

You been meeting with him scooter? Got something going on there? Hope that works out for ya. Nope, Save-a-Dave is way junior to me, but I will be nice to him when he is my F/O. You never answered my question. What is your DOH, within 6 months or so, so you don't identify yourself. I'm somewhere between summer '85 and summer '87.

Well according to the BINDING LIST!! I am summer 87.

 

[Pi brat]

Well according to the BINDING LIST!! I am summer 87.

Not what I asked sport. Were you hired by AWA in the summer of '87? I doubt it, because I have friends that were hired there then, and they aren't whinning about this like you are. As a matter of fact, they would like to see something agreed on so they can have some fences to keep the really senior from coming in on top of them.

 

[Pi brat]

I thought so too but you were more optimistic with regards to the bottom of the AWA list than I. Keep in mind, however, that the AWA's position was a direct result of the position espoused by your three PHL stooges and later argued by your NC. The East presented their case first and as a consequnce, the baseline was set so far from the 50 yard line that AWA had no choice than to argue straight slotting. I can guarantee that many AWA pilots would have preferred a mediated solution but it was the East that wanted to shove it down our throats. I also believe that there is still room for a discussion about East angst, but one thing which is not conjecture is that nothing will every progress as long as Jabba the Hut in PHL and the other two reps continue to set policy for the East. The arbitration is final and at some point both ALPA and the Company will see to it that it is implemented. That is a fact. The choice lies exclusively with the East: fix yourself or follow the PHL morons on their path to destruction.

So AWA didn't come up with a list til they saw what US Air put out? That is hard to believe. I know you guys think we all believe that DOH was some sort of birthright and we were amazed that we didn't get it, but that is just not true. I felt that ALPAs merger policy was so loose that both side had to put out the best case and let the arbitraitor sort it out. Kind of like buying a car, you don't tell the salesman that you're happy to get it invoice +5%. I can't think of a single merger that wasn't arbitrated unless one party had a gun to the others head, or in the case of US/PSA they knew another, bigger one was comming. UA was smart enough to know this that in the last merger they attempted to get a prenup.

 

[AWA320]

Not what I asked sport. Were you hired by AWA in the summer of '87? I doubt it, because I have friends that were hired there then, and they aren't whinning about this like you are. As a matter of fact, they would like to see something agreed on so they can have some fences to keep the really senior from coming in on top of them.

Well the MAJORITY says no fences and that's what I have to go by. The list is binding so again summer 87. You may be SR or you may be JR it all depends but really it doesn't if you know what I mean...July!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

So AWA didn't come up with a list til they saw what US Air put out? That is hard to believe.

The East was pretty clear from the get go that it was their way or the highway...well, not the highway but binding arbitration really. And even then there were plenty of ruminations from the East how disappointed the West would be with Nicolau, but that we'd get over it after 30 minutes or so. Had the East suddenly changed their tack in the arbitration, then Stravers no doubt would have sensed the need to meet the East half way. As the story goes...well, we know the story from there.

No matter what happens - merger, acquisition, fragmentation, BK - I will only say that the East would be so much better off if they would just take the three PHL stooges and lock them in the basement. If you don't do this and you keep subscribing to their ideas, then you're doomed to a fate consistent with your recent history. Listening to those morons does nothing to help you and everything to hurt you.

 

[Pi brat]

Well the MAJORITY says no fences and that's what I have to go by. The list is binding so again summer 87. You may be SR or you may be JR it all depends but really it doesn't if you know what I mean...July!!!

No, I don't know what you mean. Let something try something you might understand. If your were going to pass ride, would be boarded before someone that was hired by AWA in 1988? I'd say no, since you don't want to answer. I'm guessing you were hired around '98 or later, based on your postings. Saying you have a DOH of '87 because of the list says a lot about you.

 

[Pi brat]

The East was pretty clear from the get go that it was their way or the highway...well, not the highway but binding arbitration really. And even then there were plenty of ruminations from the East how disappointed the West would be with Nicolau, but that we'd get over it after 30 minutes or so. Had the East suddenly changed their tack in the arbitration, then Stravers no doubt would have sensed the need to meet the East half way. As the story goes...well, we know the story from there.

No matter what happens - merger, acquisition, fragmentation, BK - I will only say that the East would be so much better off if they would just take the three PHL stooges and lock them in the basement. If you don't do this and you keep subscribing to their ideas, then you're doomed to a fate consistent with your recent history. Listening to those morons does nothing to help you and everything to hurt you.

Again, I don't think there was any pilot here that did not think this would go to arbitration, so we saw it as playing the game. We just didn't see St Nic playing the role of punisher. Also as I said before, I think both sides got hurt by the lack of fences.

As for the PHL guys, I've never been a fan, but as I'm based in CLT, not much I can do about it.

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE(Pi brat @ Jul 31 2007, 12:48 PM)
You been meeting with him scooter? Got something going on there? Hope that works out for ya. Nope, Save-a-Dave is way junior to me, but I will be nice to him when he is my F/O. You never answered my question. What is your DOH, within 6 months or so, so you don't identify yourself. I'm somewhere between summer '85 and summer '87.

Well according to the BINDING LIST!! I am summer 87.

So AWA320; Even given all your "righteous defense" of the Nic fiasco....you are apparently too personally ashamed to admit, even approximately, when you were actually hired.....Sigh....Why am I not surprised?

 

[ussnark]

What we ended up with was a punitive award for our stubborness.

No cogent arbitrator "punishes" a party. It is way too easy to overcome such an "award".

Without equalizing the arbitration by equalizing the contracts first, Nicholau violated the first law of "relative seniority" by comparing apples to oranges.

For instance, by virtually making the east vacation contract part equal to the west, the east would have had to recall/hire over six hundred pilots, making for quite a different award, all by itself.

What the two sides got instead was not relative seniority at all but a basic staple to the bottom.

 

[AWA320]

QUOTE(Pi brat @ Jul 31 2007, 12:48 PM)
You been meeting with him scooter? Got something going on there? Hope that works out for ya. Nope, Save-a-Dave is way junior to me, but I will be nice to him when he is my F/O. You never answered my question. What is your DOH, within 6 months or so, so you don't identify yourself. I'm somewhere between summer '85 and summer '87.
So AWA320; Even given all your "righteous defense" of the Nic fiasco....you are apparently too personally ashamed to admit, even approximately, when you were actually hired.....Sigh....Why am I not surprised?

Not at all it's just not relivent as DOH is not policy and not used anymore now is it. For the slow ones again my relative position places me alogng side those who were hired summer 87. Now it was done that way (again for the slow ones) they and me had an equal amount of people below us.

Now I know this very basic concept is hard to grasp but if you try you may just understand... Now the reason why I said it doesn't matter is because you won't be around too much longer!!!

 

[AWA320]

No cogent arbitrator "punishes" a party. It is way too easy to overcome such an "award".

Without equalizing the arbitration by equalizing the contracts first, Nicholau violated the first law of "relative seniority" by comparing apples to oranges.

For instance, by virtually making the east vacation contract part equal to the west, the east would have had to recall/hire over six hundred pilots, making for quite a different award, all by itself.

What the two sides got instead was not relative seniority at all but a basic staple to the bottom.

Nark you are so dense! There was no stapleing done at all. Your furloughed rather UNEMPLOYED were not coming back and never had a chance to outside this transaction and you know it. Your crack management team had no exit plan NONE!! Look at the award Nark and do something basic, COUNT!! If you were not UNEMPLOYED at the time the number of pilots below you is the same number below the west guy right next to you. If you people could count you would see this...

 

[EastUS]

Now the reason why I said it doesn't matter...

Well...for once we're in total agreement

PS: If I were you...I'd likely be reticent about admitting my DOH as well😉

 

[Pi brat]

Not at all it's just not relivent as DOH is not policy and not used anymore now is it. For the slow ones again my relative position places me alogng side those who were hired summer 87. Now it was done that way (again for the slow ones) they and me had an equal amount of people below us.

Now I know this very basic concept is hard to grasp but if you try you may just understand... Now the reason why I said it doesn't matter is because you won't be around too much longer!!!

So that puts you around 2003. Wow! 4 whole years, you deserve 330 Capt by now. Slotted with guys with 16 more years of service than you and previous capt positons here. Your post make so much sense now. Still pretty junior, you're going to enjoy flying F/O for the east guys headed your way. By the way, way junior to me, maybe we should get on with this so I can come on out to PHX.