More People To Be Layed Off At Mci!

[Bagbelt]

If they don't bump NYC they'll get as close as they can, like BOS, or PHL. The only real problem we have had is that all TW guys are dual qualified. I've been told by a 40 year TWA guy that they were strict about qualifiying tests, but that went out the window with the purchase. I can only speak for title 2. If I get laid off I'm limited where I can bump as far as fac/auto goes. The TW guys can go to either shop, even if they have never done the work. This has caused real bitterness.

 

[mike7867]

Again, you make it sound as no origional AA people have been laid off when in fact there are more nAAtives gone than ex-TWA. This is even stated in your MCIExpress on page 2 in the March issue. Yes, even if AA did not buy TWA's assets AA would still have layoffs but a TWA total shut down and all of it's employees and flights gone from the industry would have mitigated the layoffs at the other airlines because that would have been a capacity decrease that would have been good for the industry as a whole. So you could say that nAAtives that got laid off are a cushion for the ex-TWA still working. They get 25% a certain cities, so be it. However,when they bump to 25% cities they rub it in to the nAAtives who they are bumping or are senior to. I have NEVER heard of a nAAtive rubbing it in an ex-TWA persons face about how they(the nAAtive) have more seniority.

[post="261119"][/post]​

so your saying that there is 15000 naative aa people on the street? because thats about how many twa people have been laid off. and the only two stations i know of twa people bumping into are sfo and ny. and from what i hear from my buddies they are treated like crap in new york. one story i heard was on thanksgiving day aa gave the employees a thanksgiving dinner. well the naatives never told the x-twa people. and then locked the door so the x-twa people couldnt even get in once the found out.

 

[goingboeing]

Maybe 'cause at the time, UAL was trying to merge with USAir?

Maybe 'cause at the time, nobody's crystal ball predicted September 11, 2001?

You may disagree, but I sincerely doubt that AA spent $742 million cash plus a couple billion of assumed debt simply to shrink to pre-2001 levels.

[post="261063"][/post]​

TWA was already a failed airline before 9/11 2001 from a financial perspective.That is why AA was able to purchase it so cheap and AA got what they payed for.
The ex-TWA MD 80's have been a disaster at TUL when doing Heavy C checks and the lack of a good corrosion program is evident when the aircraft are opened up for inspection.

AA management should have made decisions on sound business priciples and not what some other airline might or might not be doing.

If I'm the owner of a baseball team and I need to improve my pitching I do not go on the market and buy a pitcher that has a high era and bad win-loss record.
Buying a losing pitcher is not going to help my team.

 

[aafsc]

so your saying that there is 15000 naative aa people on the street? because thats about how many twa people have been laid off. and the only two stations i know of twa people bumping into are sfo and ny. and from what i hear from my buddies they are treated like crap in new york. one story i heard was on thanksgiving day aa gave the employees a thanksgiving dinner. well the naatives never told the x-twa people. and then locked the door so the x-twa people couldnt even get in once the found out.

[post="261133"][/post]​

According to the MCIExpress (a publication written by former TWA employees) there are a lot more than 15,000 nAAtives on the street. It says that there are 21,240 nAAtives on the street as opposed to 17,000 ex-TWA on the street. They say there are about 3,000 total TWA people left at AA. But I think the number is between 4.000 to 5.000. TWU represented alone accounts for about 3,500. Plus about 1000 agents, about 500 pilots with the rest being management, specialist and clerical people. So I think it is more like there are 15,000 ex-TWA on the street. Just look for yourself. It is on page 2 of the March edition. 15,000 ex-TWA gone compared to 21,240 nAAtives gone. Which group lost more people?

 

[DECISION 2007]

I have NEVER heard of a nAAtive rubbing it in an ex-TWA persons face about how they(the nAAtive) have more seniority

Ok...you win. You're correct...nAAtives never ever have said anything in bad taste to the TWAers. It is I, the TWA employee, that should be reprimanded for wanting a just union membership. One item I will not miss at AA is the crying and ranting of the nAAtives when they see their furlough notices...AA will eat their young soon!

How many nAAtives have hit the brix since the purchase of TWA? 21,000? And we have what, 5,000 twaers still employed at AA? Where are they? We have 1400 some, until June, here at MCIE...there are 3600 left at the line stations? That's not fair to the line guy with 5 yrs seniority!

 

[aafsc]

Ok...you win. You're correct...nAAtives never ever have said anything in bad taste to the TWAers. It is I, the TWA employee, that should be reprimanded for wanting a just union membership. One item I will not miss at AA is the crying and ranting of the nAAtives when they see their furlough notices...AA will eat their young soon!

How many nAAtives have hit the brix since the purchase of TWA? 21,000? And we have what, 5,000 twaers still employed at AA? Where are they? We have 1400 some, until June, here at MCIE...there are 3600 left at the line stations? That's not fair to the line guy with 5 yrs seniority!

[post="261160"][/post]​

My numbers are based the last seniority lists and from reading what a former TWA pilot union official wrote on another website. I tried to pull up the seniority lists today in Jetnet to get an exact count but it seems that the lists were removed. But of course you feel that ex-TWA should have been able to keep all their seniority, shoot to the top of the combined list insuring that everyone laid off will be nAAtive while you reap the harvest from what WE built and fought for in negotiations. The mechanic and related from both sides went to binding arbitration and the arbitrator ruled. Why can't you accept his ruling? You repeatedly capitulated to Icahn while he took all from you and you expect to be rewared by being given your full TWA seniority at the expense of nAAtives who at the time of the transaction had industry leading compensation among the legacies. I have 15 years and I just got bumped out of my city. A friend of mine has 18 years and he just got furloughed from his.

 

[aafsc]

i have one thing to say. i am a x twa mech who is now laid off out of mci. all of the native aaers that are still crying about the twa purchase. if it wasnt for the twa puchase you know how many aa'ers would be out of work. aa move are md80 checks out of mci and st.louis to replace the f-100 work that they loss. now if it wasnt for those twa planes how many aa amts would have got it in tulsa. and those 300 flights they pulled out of st.louis had to go somewhere. and all of those b checks and layover checks had to go somewhere also. so all of those jobs that we did before the purchase of twa are now keeping the native aa people working. so maybe you ought to think about that before you cry about the twa purchase. i had 13 years in but i am seeing guys with over 30 years getting laid off. at least i am still young enough to do something else. oh and telling guys that new york will break them is bull. i worked in new york for 5 years and it was no big deal. and i was born and raised in missouri.

[post="261092"][/post]​

A lot of those planes that they used in STL are now sitting in the desert. You mentioned that AA got rid of the F-100s. But they also got rid of all of TWA's DC-9s, 717s, 767s, 8 of their 757s,plus the previously mentioned super 80s in the desert.

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< Time----- We're talking MCI here! Not TUL! Nobody at TUL, or AFW are being reduced! All I can say for the TWA purchase is that it must have seemed like the right thing to do, at the time! Hind sight is always 20/20! But be glad they did, because the exTWA people have been taking the full brunt of these hard times!!!!If Cardy hadn't, a lot of nAAtives would now be out of work!! As for NYC, I'll just say, I'de be vary surprised if that would happen! We're not talking about kids here! Seniority is back to 1986!

[post="261042"][/post]​

Hindsight is 20/20 but foresight comes with experience.

While not 20/20 it is still useful.

You guys should have known that this was coming. How many promises did Uncle Carl make of a better future if you just "sacrifice" a little today? Why should you have believed that AMR was any different? The fact is those of you who voted "yes" for concessions were stupid, sorry but thats simply the only way of stating it.

Do we care? Sure, but I have to admit that there is resentment over the fact that without MCI the concessions vote would have failed. I told your E-board that concessions or not that if the company decided to close MCI they would. Now that you have completed the work they had scheduled they are shrinking it and laying your coworkers off. Lay offs suck, but the fact is that if your coworkers had the $30,000 to $40,000 they gave back to the company in their own accounts they would be in better shape to deal with the lay off.

By the way yesterday another coworker here at JFK quit. He had over 15 years and was not at risk of being laid off. Unlike your laid off coworkers who have the option of salvaging something from a career in the future if things get better he is gone for good. He could no longer afford to work here and quit to start at the bottom at Con Ed. Bitter, you bet, but do you guys care that the concessions you put in are forcing us out of our careers without a 10 year option to come back where we left off?

 

[Bob Owens]

i have one thing to say. i am a x twa mech who is now laid off out of mci. all of the native aaers that are still crying about the twa purchase. if it wasnt for the twa puchase you know how many aa'ers would be out of work. aa move are md80 checks out of mci and st.louis to replace the f-100 work that they loss. now if it wasnt for those twa planes how many aa amts would have got it in tulsa. and those 300 flights they pulled out of st.louis had to go somewhere. and all of those b checks and layover checks had to go somewhere also. so all of those jobs that we did before the purchase of twa are now keeping the native aa people working. so maybe you ought to think about that before you cry about the twa purchase. i had 13 years in but i am seeing guys with over 30 years getting laid off. at least i am still young enough to do something else. oh and telling guys that new york will break them is bull. i worked in new york for 5 years and it was no big deal. and i was born and raised in missouri.

[post="261092"][/post]​

Well in all fairness if AA had not bought TWA where would all the TWAers be today? Do you think that TWA would have survived? Or would all of you have been working somewhere else, with ZERO credit for your TWA time now?

I agree that whats done is done with the TWA deal. You guys are our brothers and sisters now. We can either work together or let the company and the TWU profit from our squabbling. Its time to try and fix some of the things that are wrong with this profession.

The first thing we as workers must do is fix our representation, in other words replace the TWU and get us all into one union so we can establish rates of pay and rules for seniority industrywide instead of by individual corporations. This would reduce the hold that the companies have over us and their ability to turn us against each other.

You are laid off, you have 10 years recall, fill out an AMFA card.Either that or hope that the same people in the same institutions that have let us down so many times before will all of a sudden change on their own.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Time---- It sounds like you may be worried! If there are exTWA people that can go to NYC, and want to, they'll come and take their 25%!!!! But not to worry, because I don't think anyone here is that hard up for work!!!!

Actually I am not worried. I left NY 3 years ago so the twa rifs no longer affect me. 😀
But my father did hit the street because of the twa rifs. So I guess it must have been one of those guys hard up for work. :down:

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

i worked in new york for 5 years and it was no big deal. and i was born and raised in missouri.

You must have lived in a refridgerator box under the Throgs Neck Bridge where your taxes would have been at a minimum

 

[mike7867]

You must have lived in a refridgerator box under the Throgs Neck Bridge where your taxes would have been at a minimum

[post="261249"][/post]​

nope i lived on staten island. making far less than what i was making when i got laid off. when i lived up there i was still working for twa making a little over 15 an hour. and i am not going to say anything bad about new york. i really enjoyed the people up there. i think the new york people get a bad rap. i am also tired of fighting between twa and aa people. all i ever wanted to do was just go to work and do my job. now i am just trying to start my life over, which by the way i have a interview next week so keep your fingers cross. i dont think i will ever get called back to aa so hopefully this job works out. i only have recall to st.louis and kansas city so i dont think i will ever get called back. as for all the rest of you i hope it all works out. i dont know if amfa would be better than the twu. but we had the same thing at twa with the iam and amfa. all i know is my parents have been in unions all of there lifes mainly teamsters. and a union is as strong as its members. my parents told me of days when teamsters officers would go to jail to make a point. i cant see that happening these days with any union. the unions it seems lost there power when reagan fired the air traffic controllers. when reagan did that every union person in the united states should have walked off the job. well i will get off the soap box now. good luck to you all.

 

[AMFAMAN]

Mike,

I do agree with much of what you say. However, I disagree with the statement that the union is as strong as the members. As you point out about Teamster officials going to jail; I believe the membership is only as strong as the leadership. Strong leadership allows for a strong memberhip and therefore a strong union. When you have a former member of manAAgement as the leader of the twu, we are all doomed from the start. Many of us are attempting to right this wrong by removing the company union. I hope you are assisting the effort by keeping a current card on file.

AMFA CARD LINK

 

[Bob Owens]

mike7867,Apr 9 2005, 10:32 PM]
nope i lived on staten island.

By Authur Kill?

making far less than what i was making when i got laid off. when i lived up there i was still working for twa making a little over 15 an hour. and i am not going to say anything bad about new york. i really enjoyed the people up there. i think the new york people get a bad rap. i am also tired of fighting between twa and aa people. all i ever wanted to do was just go to work and do my job. now i am just trying to start my life over, which by the way i have a interview next week so keep your fingers cross.

Good luck on the interview.

i dont think i will ever get called back to aa so hopefully this job works out.


This industry has always been cyclical. With a 10 year recall more than likely you will get the opportunity to excercise recall, but you would probably have to relocate. Within the next five years you will be hearing about another mechanic shortage.

i only have recall to st.louis and kansas city so i dont think i will ever get called back.

Well you only get your seniority there but you have 25% in some stations and 4/10/01 in others. The question really is would you want to come back.

as for all the rest of you i hope it all works out. i dont know if amfa would be better than the twu.

Well if you really mean that then send in a card. As Jim Littles letter about the "survey" proves there is no changing the TWU. Little said that the survey indicated that the members do not feel that we need structural changes. Do you know anyone who feels that the current structure is effective?

but we had the same thing at twa with the iam and amfa. all i know is my parents have been in unions all of there lifes mainly teamsters. and a union is as strong as its members.

Well yes and no. Do you feel that the leaders we have today compare? Look at history, do we say that "the people did great things, or do we point out the great leaders who with the support and confidence of the people achieved great things?

The fact is that social movements are dependant upon having leaders, the current structure keeps people in place that can not lead, they do not inspire trust or confidence and that is what is ailing the labor movement. Its not the members, its the structure of the movement and the lack of leadership.

Members have become so entranced by cliches based on half truths that they fail to really analiize what is going on. Where have the members failed? What have the leaders asked the members to do that they have not done? The fact is that as calamity upon calamity has fallen upon union workers the leaders have encouraged acceptance instead of rebellion, as workers wages go down leaders have taken very good care of themselves with the dues that those same people pay. Most of these unions have set up things so that they are untouchable by the members they claim they serve.


my parents told me of days when teamsters officers would go to jail to make a point. i cant see that happening these days with any union.

Thats exactly right. While these people sit back and colect their six figure salaries they are not willing to fight for the people who provide them with that, and they have made things such that you cant get rid of them either. After dealing with these people for four years I can tell you that they in fact have nothing but contempt for the members. Go to jail for the members? Ha, never happen with these guys.

the unions it seems lost there power when reagan fired the air traffic controllers. when reagan did that every union person in the united states should have walked off the job.

I agree, and the reason it did not happen is because union leaders were not willing to fight. They still arent. Why should they? They are doing fine so they have no reason to fight.

well i will get off the soap box now. good luck to you all.

Thanks, same to you. Now how about giving us the chance to try and make things better by filling out a card?At this point what do you have to lose?

 

[MCI transplant]

Hindsight is 20/20 but foresight comes with experience.

While not 20/20 it is still useful.

You guys should have known that this was coming. How many promises did Uncle Carl make of a better future if you just "sacrifice" a little today? Why should you have believed that AMR was any different? The fact is those of you who voted "yes" for concessions were stupid, sorry but thats simply the only way of stating it.

Do we care? Sure, but I have to admit that there is resentment over the fact that without MCI the concessions vote would have failed. I told your E-board that concessions or not that if the company decided to close MCI they would. Now that you have completed the work they had scheduled they are shrinking it and laying your coworkers off. Lay offs suck, but the fact is that if your coworkers had the $30,000 to $40,000 they gave back to the company in their own accounts they would be in better shape to deal with the lay off.

By the way yesterday another coworker here at JFK quit. He had over 15 years and was not at risk of being laid off. Unlike your laid off coworkers who have the option of salvaging something from a career in the future if things get better he is gone for good. He could no longer afford to work here and quit to start at the bottom at Con Ed. Bitter, you bet, but do you guys care that the concessions you put in are forcing us out of our careers without a 10 year option to come back where we left off?

[post="261240"][/post]​

<_< Bob----- Your right! We were neive!!! We actually thought that fellow AFL/CIO Union brothers would treat us fairly!! We were broad sided by the calous greed and internal beckering of the a.a. work force both Union, and management!! I'm afraid that no matter what Union is in control, that a.a. has divided station against station, local against local, And even down to Dock against Dock to the point of no return! Your quick to point a finger at MCI, and say it was all our fault that the concessions past, but never say a word about the 3200 pin numbers that were never issued to vote with!! Could these votes have made a differance? We'll never know now will we!!! What really bothers me is the fact that you say you support the AMFA, will as an exTWA employee reading your previous post, there doesn't seem much differance between you and Little!!!
And believe me, I'm really sorry to say that!!!!