MRO Outsourced Maintenance

[Hopeful]

If AA would make capital expenditures in NEW EQUIPMENT and UPGRADED FACILITIES there would be no way that foreign workers could compete with our skills and training. The problem for us @ AA TULE is that we are having to compete with OUTDATED EQUIPMENT against Aeroman in El Salvador who has had Americans and Canadians invest several billion dollars in modern equipment and facilities. AAR purchased the UAL Indianapolis Facility which is more modern than any of our facilities at TULE. [Oh, I forgot about the new Blimp Hangar at TULE]
To put it in perspective we are still using test stands and support equipment that was purchased for the B707-B727 DC-10. AA was willing to purchase modern generation aircraft but not the test equipment and support equipment to go with them.This fact alone has made our productivity not be able to increase at the rate it should have to retain a large competitive edge over MRO's.

Unfortunately, all AA cares about is what the 3P maintenance facilities pay their people!

 

[Veritas]

Believe it or not the government considers Damlier Chrysler as an import, because headquarters are in germany. That came from a Dodge forum. As far as the honda built in Alabama, the money paid for vehicle still goes leaves this country.

There hasn't been DaimlerChrysler since May 2007 when Daimler dumped Chrysler on Cerberus Capital Management.

Chrysler sold in unprecedented auto deal

 

[Interested]

There hasn't been DaimlerChrysler since May 2007 when Daimler dumped Chrysler on Cerberus Capital Management.

Chrysler sold in unprecedented auto deal

True, but who owns them now, Fiat? Still a foreign owned company.

 

[tech2101]

A Macroeconomics course would do wonders to help some in this forum.

 

[Veritas]

True, but who owns them now, Fiat? Still a foreign owned company.

The U.A.W. retiree health fund owns 55%, Fiat 20% (which will to increase to 35% if the restructured Chrysler meets performance criteria), the U.S. Treasury 8% and the Canadian and Ontario governments 2%.

The Washington Post

Not as foreign as you suggest.

 

[Bob Owens]

As a matter of fact, when I brought my Jeep to the dealer a couple years ago after being rear ended, they had Midas replace the exhaust system (which was damaged in the accident), and outsourced the paint to Maaco. I found that out after the fact by looking at the invoice. Didn't matter to me because the price was within the original estimate. Sure, it wasn't factory equipment, but it looked and worked just as good as the OEM stuff did.

Frankly, I get more pissed about buying a Dodge and finding out it was built in Mexico, while my wife's Honda was made in Alabama...

While I dont expect you to admit it how that cheapo Midas exhast and Maaco paint held up, they may look the same but they arent, The factory OEM stuff lasts longer (my 1986 Fiero had the original exhaust on it 15 years and 180K miles later). Quality is the difference.

 

[eolesen]

While I dont expect you to admit it how that cheapo Midas exhast and Maaco paint held up, they may look the same but they arent, The factory OEM stuff lasts longer (my 1986 Fiero had the original exhaust on it 15 years and 180K miles later). Quality is the difference.

Considering the Jeep was eight years old at the time, three years later it still looks better than what it replaced. Paint still has a gloss while the factory stuff has flaked off. And it was Toledo built, which is why I bought it in the first place...

 

[Bob Owens]

Considering the Jeep was eight years old at the time, three years later it still looks better than what it replaced. Paint still has a gloss while the factory stuff has flaked off. And it was Toledo built, which is why I bought it in the first place...

So you are boasting that your three year old paint from Maaco looks better than your 11 year old OEM paint? Okay.

The fact is that the FAA admits that when the airlines switched to outsourcing they did not adapt and that they focused their efforts on what remained in house. So in other words by outsourcing these other carriers got a free ride when it came to FAA oversight, the FAA then had to show that they were doing something so they made a big deal about something they never would have taken a second look at ten years ago; the spacing between ties on a wiring harness.
The fact is that in house maintenance usually is of a much higher quality because for one thing the guys tend to be better trained, more qualified, more experienced and more familiar with what they are working on.

 

[DallasConehead]

The fact is that in house maintenance usually is of a much higher quality because for one thing the guys tend to be better trained, more qualified, more experienced and more familiar with what they are working on.

People that buy the tickets don't seem care about this fact since they continue to ride on carriers that send their planes out. Therefore it is a non issue until there are tombstones as a result.

 

[eolesen]

So you are boasting that your three year old paint from Maaco looks better than your 11 year old OEM paint? Okay.

No, just refuting your dumb claim that it's automatically inferior because it wasn't done by a dealership, and was instead shopped out to someone who specializes in paint. I don't expect a general practitioner to be able to do complex surgery, nor do I expect a surgeon to look at something like a foot fungus...

And, say what you will about your aptly named Fiero, dealership and factory quality isn't what it used to be. You're lucky to have gotten fifteen years out of it before the engine caught fire... My cousin's burned up within a year of buying it.

The fact is that the FAA admits that when the airlines switched to outsourcing they did not adapt and that they focused their efforts on what remained in house. So in other words by outsourcing these other carriers got a free ride when it came to FAA oversight, the FAA then had to show that they were doing something so they made a big deal about something they never would have taken a second look at ten years ago; the spacing between ties on a wiring harness.

So it really wasn't deregulation that was the problem, but the FAA being slow to respond to change? That I believe and agree with.

The fact is that in house maintenance usually is of a much higher quality because for one thing the guys tend to be better trained, more qualified, more experienced and more familiar with what they are working on.

Fact, or perception?

Again, quality and experience are not unique to in-house operations, Bob.

You love to broad-brush the concept of MRO as being a chop-shop filled with guys with two teeth who can't speak English.

Maybe you need to take a little road trip and see for yourself....

Start out at AAR at OKC. I'm sure you'll find more than a few guys who have been working on xC-135's for 30 years and C-17's for 15 years. I'm sure they would appreciate knowing they're a low-quality shop.

Next, head over to Dee Howard (now ST San Antonio), and tell the guys who have been working on CO and WN aircraft for 20-30 years that you know more than they do.

Then, swing by IND, and let the ex-UA guys know that you consider them less trained and qualified to work on an A320 or 737 because they don't carry a union card or an airline ID anymore.


Quality is where you find it. It's not automatic.

 

[Hopeful]

No, just refuting your dumb claim that it's automatically inferior because it wasn't done by a dealership, and was instead shopped out to someone who specializes in paint. I don't expect a general practitioner to be able to do complex surgery, nor do I expect a surgeon to look at something like a foot fungus...

Eric, it's the CHAIN store structure of a MAACO that leaves a lot to be desired.
I don't know about you, but living in NY my entire life, you simply cannot compare the likes of a DOMINO or PIZZA HUT pizza to the local NY pizzeria. There is no comparison in taste and quality of ingredients.
The local pizzeria does not have to worry about shareholders, investors, and profits to satisfy them like MEGA chains to.
The local guy is more concerned with providing a superior product in the neighborhood so customers always return for more.
You couldn't care less who painted your JEEP because of the bottom dollar.

How would you feel if it were a $100,000 Mercedes Benz? Would you still let MAACO paint it?

 

[eolesen]

Eric, it's the CHAIN store structure of a MAACO that leaves a lot to be desired.
I don't know about you, but living in NY my entire life, you simply cannot compare the likes of a DOMINO or PIZZA HUT pizza to the local NY pizzeria. There is no comparison in taste and quality of ingredients.
The local pizzeria does not have to worry about shareholders, investors, and profits to satisfy them like MEGA chains to.
The local guy is more concerned with providing a superior product in the neighborhood so customers always return for more.
You couldn't care less who painted your JEEP because of the bottom dollar.

How would you feel if it were a $100,000 Mercedes Benz? Would you still let MAACO paint it?

Well, in this case, did you ever stop to think that AA is the mega chain, and the MRO's are actually the mom & pop outfit?

If I had the money for a $100,000 Mercedes, I probably wouldn't be worrying too much about saving money. And this wasn't coming out of my pocket, since it was the other guy's insurance footing the bill.

Based on the experience and the fact that the paint has held up, I wouldn't have an issue with *THAT SHOP* doing another vehicle. They may have a chain-store stigma, but that doesn't necessarily mean the quality of the work being done in the shop is poor.

Same thing with the MRO's. Obviously WN and CO are happy with Dee Howard/ST San Antonio. I'm sure US isn't as pleased with ST Aerospace in Mobile. Same owner, different reputations.

 

[700UW]

What you fail to realize the AA's In-house mtc employees are driven by safety, as they, their families, coworkers and passengers will fly on those planes. At an MRO, they are driven by time and cost, if the plane goes out late, the company earns less money, etc...

When US first outsourced the A319 to ST Aerospace, the first plane made several emergency landings as they did not rig the flaps correctly, and numerous other issues, they couldnt even match the correct color gray paint. Another plane just came back from ST and the FAs couldnt get the slide to arm, our mtc found that the girt bar locks were not reinstalled on to the floor. I could go on and on and on.

Bottom line at MROs there are more unlicensed personnel working on the plane then licensed.

From the FAA Database:
ST Mobile Aerospace:
Personnel
Certificated Mechanics: 470
Repairmen: 46
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 1092
Total Employees: 1608

Database

ST San Antonio
Personnel
Certificated Mechanics: 305
Repairmen: 48
Non-Certificated Mechanics: 493
Total Employees: 1118

 

[Bob Owens]

No, just refuting your dumb claim that it's automatically inferior because it wasn't done by a dealership, and was instead shopped out to someone who specializes in paint. I don't expect a general practitioner to be able to do complex surgery, nor do I expect a surgeon to look at something like a foot fungus...
And, say what you will about your aptly named Fiero, dealership and factory quality isn't what it used to be. You're lucky to have gotten fifteen years out of it before the engine caught fire... My cousin's burned up within a year of buying it.

A little thin skinned arent you? Where did I say you should have had your car painted at the Dealer? Most dealers dont paint cars, I called you on the fact that you said your three year old paint was better than the original 11 year old factory paint job.
(next EO reply ---"Whatever Bob)

As far as the Fiero, I loved that car, had around 180,000 miles on it when I sold it, never had any serious problems with it (mine was a 2.8ltr V6-the 4 bangers had the fuel line problem). (Best AC of any car I ever had, never serviced it either) The only reason I sold it was because my uncle gave me his Honda which was a 4-door and I had kids.

Fact, or perception?

Again, quality and experience are not unique to in-house operations, Bob.

You love to broad-brush the concept of MRO as being a chop-shop filled with guys with two teeth who can't speak English.

Maybe you need to take a little road trip and see for yourself....

Start out at AAR at OKC. I'm sure you'll find more than a few guys who have been working on xC-135's for 30 years and C-17's for 15 years. I'm sure they would appreciate knowing they're a low-quality shop.

Next, head over to Dee Howard (now ST San Antonio), and tell the guys who have been working on CO and WN aircraft for 20-30 years that you know more than they do.

Then, swing by IND, and let the ex-UA guys know that you consider them less trained and qualified to work on an A320 or 737 because they don't carry a union card or an airline ID anymore.

I worked for AAR so I would say I know better than you as far as it being a chop shop. I recall some jerk off VP calling us all in to some meeting talking about how the company wanted to actually train people instead of just throwing a part and a manual in front of them. He wanted us to do the training on our own time and sign a contract that would bind us to the company for a couple of years or agree to pay them for the training if we left the company. I asked how much of a raise do we get if we completed the training, he said no raise was tied to it, I said "so you want me to do the training on my own time which would make our repairs more reliable and I had to stay with the company even if I didnt get a raise or pay you some inflated price for the training that I had to do on my own time? Count me out", and I quit a few weeks llater. I worked there for around three months. It was a chop shop.

The problem with the chop shops is they work anything thats brought in, whereas IN house guys work the same equipment over and over again. The chop shops are working for profit, slap it together and get it out so they can get something else in, they dont care about it after its out the door, they are done with it. Let the airlines line maintenance take care of it. While you may think you know it all I've spent 30 years in Maint, not just with AA but with Low cost carriers, I,ve seen 3P OH up close, spent hours cleaning up the crap they turn out (actually the OT came in handy but as a mechanic I found it disturbing).

There may be quality guys in OKC and if they stick with 135s and C-17s fine but if all of a sudden they pull in a 757 or an MD-80 because they were the cheapest bidder its going to come out a mess. Is it because they are bad mechanics, no, its because the boss will put pressure on them to get it out without doing it right.

 

[eolesen]

And the "pressure to get it out ontime" is exactly why you need someone on AA payroll to oversee the work being done daily by the vendor. That's something both CO and WN apparently find important.

Nobody ever answered --- did FDX have anyone QA'ing the work AA was doing on their aircraft? How 'bout Allegiant? North American?