MRO Outsourced Maintenance

[JimJimmyJim]

And the "pressure to get it out ontime" is exactly why you need someone on AA payroll to oversee the work being done daily by the vendor. That's something both CO and WN apparently find important.

Nobody ever answered --- did FDX have anyone QA'ing the work AA was doing on their aircraft? How 'bout Allegiant? North American?

North American was 100% by back on all e58's when the were done at DWH. American inspectors did the inspections. NA had reps going over all paperwork.

 

[telebender1956]

Well, in this case, did you ever stop to think that AA is the mega chain, and the MRO's are actually the mom & pop outfit?

If I had the money for a $100,000 Mercedes, I probably wouldn't be worrying too much about saving money. And this wasn't coming out of my pocket, since it was the other guy's insurance footing the bill.

Based on the experience and the fact that the paint has held up, I wouldn't have an issue with *THAT SHOP* doing another vehicle. They may have a chain-store stigma, but that doesn't necessarily mean the quality of the work being done in the shop is poor.

Same thing with the MRO's. Obviously WN and CO are happy with Dee Howard/ST San Antonio. I'm sure US isn't as pleased with ST Aerospace in Mobile. Same owner, different reputations.

Dee Howard in SAN is the same company that AA REJECTED in 2003 for performing AA B757 H/C checks. AA presented them with the BOW and asked them for their best turn times and prices. AA TULE was turning the same H/C checks in 15 days and Dee Howard Company told AA the best they could do was 25 days.This fact alone forced AA management to keep the B757 H/C 's at TULE because of the economic impact of the downtime of each Check.AA discovered that they were getting a bargain on their B757 H/C Checks.This info came from a upper management person who was well known at TULE during the 1990's and early-mid 2000's.I personally was in the meeting when he told us this info.

 

[FWAAA]

Looks like RR modified newer models of the Trent 900 but didn't tell Qantas or Airbus about the mod, and both are saying they should have been notified. This could get interesting:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Airlines-Rolls-modified-apf-2685403032.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=

 

[Bob Owens]

North American was 100% by back on all e58's when the were done at DWH. American inspectors did the inspections. NA had reps going over all paperwork.

As far as I know thats what they do at JFK as well. They just look at the paperwork, not the work. Thats with just a B-check, with the C-check there would be a lot more cards and a lot more work to check.

EO, you just dont get it. I've been in this industry for 30 years, all of it on the maintenance end, for several different carriers(and an MRO as well). Despite the fact that guys on the line have had concessionary contracts rammed down their throats by Tulsa for twenty years we all know that we get better airplanes out of our OH than we would get from the chop shops. We see it with the parts we outsource such as the APUs that dont work and the engines that used to come back worse than when we pulled them off the wing. I worked the engine shop as JFK and when we used to get the engines back from the Vendor they looked like they didnt even clean them, they were a mess. Most of us had to work from three to five years before we got to AA so we saw first hand what the chop shops put out when we worked for the LCCs that used to be the training grounds for AA and the other majors. Those small carriers didnt have the volume of work to support running their own OH so for them it was acceptable to send them in,let them screw them all up then have the line guys clean them up. Back then the FAA was a lot more lenient, sometimes things would remain on placard for months. How do you think outfits like that got nicknames like "Peoples Distress"?

Its well known that while some MROs are better and more relaible than others, in house is usually better than MROs. The only time that may not be the case is if its an oddball aircraft in the fleet. When we bought two 747SPs from TWA, we outsourced a lot of the maint to TWA, because most of our guys hadnt really worked 747s in a long time and it didnt make sense to gear up for just two airplanes. As long as they had the volume of work it was usually more cost effective and you ended up with a more more reliable fleet doing it in house. So we had no problem with TWA doing the work, because we knew they knew the airplane better than us, but they were a chop shop either. If TWA wasnt available we would have done the work in house.

 

[DallasConehead]

Its well known that while some MROs are better and more relaible than others, in house is usually better than MROs. The only time that may not be the case is if its an oddball aircraft in the fleet. When we bought two 747SPs from TWA, we outsourced a lot of the maint to TWA, because most of our guys hadnt really worked 747s in a long time and it didnt make sense to gear up for just two airplanes. As long as they had the volume of work it was usually more cost effective and you ended up with a more more reliable fleet doing it in house. So we had no problem with TWA doing the work, because we knew they knew the airplane better than us, but they were a chop shop either. If TWA wasnt available we would have done the work in house.

We did the overnight maint on the SPs and they went up to TWAs MCI for all the checks.

 

[700UW]

Funny how EO never addresses the safety in-house vs cost and time at the MROs and how there are more unlicensed at the MROs than licensed.

 

[eolesen]

Funny how EO never addresses the safety in-house vs cost and time at the MROs and how there are more unlicensed at the MROs than licensed.

Get us the real figures, UW, and I'd be glad to. But the problem is that nobody here, me included, has good cost analysis figures. It's all smoke and mirrors on both sides of the table.

How do you think outfits like that got nicknames like "Peoples Distress"?

From the service. They were like Ryanair is today. No interlining, no promises other than maybe the plane will leave. But it didn't extend to maintenance.

PE had licensed mechanics to supervise what the on-call guys did, but for the most part, all of the work was done by airline mechanics.

UA did the line at EWR, BN did it at ORD, and AA did it in a few locations as well. QF did overhauls on the 747s, don't recall who did the 727s or 737s.

 

[eolesen]

Funny how EO never addresses the safety in-house vs cost and time at the MROs and how there are more unlicensed at the MROs than licensed.

Get us the real figures, UW, and I'd be glad to. But the problem is that nobody here, me included, has good cost analysis figures. It's all smoke and mirrors on both sides of the table.

How do you think outfits like that got nicknames like "Peoples Distress"?

From the service.

They had licensed mechanics to supervise what the on-call guys did, but for the most part, all of the work was done by airline mechanics.

UA did the line at EWR, BN did it at ORD, and AA did it in a few locations as well. QF did overhauls on the 747s, don't recall who did the 727s or 737s.

 

[700UW]

I dont have the dollar figures but when at US and I was on the NC, why do you think they wanted to outsource overhaul?

It was cheaper than doing it with your own employees.

Those MRO contracts are driven by cost and time, if the plane goes out late, they get paid less, thats a fact.

And I gave you figures of the unlicensed and you still ignored it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Get us the real figures, UW, and I'd be glad to. But the problem is that nobody here, me included, has good cost analysis figures. It's all smoke and mirrors on both sides of the table.

Well at AA they brought more work back in house and have around 1200 mechanics on payroll that they are not contractually obligated to. If they could get it done cheaper they would.

From the service.

They had licensed mechanics to supervise what the on-call guys did, but for the most part, all of the work was done by airline mechanics.

UA did the line at EWR, BN did it at ORD, and AA did it in a few locations as well. QF did overhauls on the 747s, don't recall who did the 727s or 737s.

Wrong, Butler Aviation did most of the work at EWR. They bent one plane in half, did a high speed taxi with elevator trim full nose up and crashed another one, didnt chock another one and it rolled into a ditch, hooked up pneumatic tools to an oxygen bottle (boom) etc etc.

 

[eolesen]

Wrong, Butler Aviation did most of the work at EWR. They bent one plane in half, did a high speed taxi with elevator trim full nose up and crashed another one, didnt chock another one and it rolled into a ditch, hooked up pneumatic tools to an oxygen bottle (boom) etc etc.

I'll take your word for it. I didn't work at EWR, and that's what I was told by a CSM who did. I did work at ORD, and we had TW doing our ramp & BN doing the on-call and overnights. Ironic, since half of the 727's were -227s.

UW, you gave raw numbers of licensed vs. unlicensed. That's about as useful as a bag of dust. What's their staffing? How many man hours go into each check at the licensed and unlicensed rates? What's the total out of service time? What's the true cost per man hour for AA, or any other airline? Not the hourly rate, but the fully loaded including admin, management, real estate, shop consumables, benefits, retirement, etc...

The last part is something people here have been trying to get from the union & company, and without any luck. Maybe you can do better.

 

[787nightmare]

"There may be quality guys in OKC and if they stick with 135s and C-17s fine but if all of a sudden they pull in a 757 or an MD-80 because they were the cheapest bidder its going to come out a mess. Is it because they are bad mechanics, no, its because the boss will put pressure on them to get it out without doing it right. "

Bob I worked at AAR in OKC for about 3 wks(about all I could take)...they were doing AK MD80s & UA 737s (as well as a commuter plane or two-forget who)when I was there. Word was AAR was the only MRO that would take there heavys after they crashed that MD80 in the pacific. QA/paperwork was a fricken nightmare!
The place was a real poop hole and full of a/p school grads, contractors(cause they can't get exp a/ps to come to wk for them)good ol boy system(from local Okla City boys). Coming from the airline industry, it was real eye opener. Just unbelievable. <_<

Btw, it was commonplace at FedEx to have electronic components(boxs, motors/actuators) to be "bad from stock"(from vendor). And FX outsources everything except line maint and B checks.

 

[Bob Owens]

UW, you gave raw numbers of licensed vs. unlicensed. That's about as useful as a bag of dust. What's their staffing? How many man hours go into each check at the licensed and unlicensed rates? What's the total out of service time? What's the true cost per man hour for AA, or any other airline? Not the hourly rate, but the fully loaded including admin, management, real estate, shop consumables, benefits, retirement, etc...

The last part is something people here have been trying to get from the union & company, and without any luck. Maybe you can do better.

As far as I know they dont charge different rates depending on who is working them, they charge a flat rate since an A&P signs for the work anyway. They pay for the signature, not who is actually doing the work. Thats how it was at AAR when I was there. They probably pay the workers the same, with a small premium added for the license. Good luck finding numbers, even though the airlines claim all their costs are fixed they dont release what they pay.

When AA dumps out their "cost per man hour " they put in max pay rates despite the fact that more than 10% of the workforce will never see anything near that rate (OSMs, Cleaners, Parts Washers etc)and two thirds are not line mechanics working nights.

We've been asking for cost outs for at least two years, the company wont give them and there's nothing that forces the company to release them. Maybe when we get to a PEB we will see them.

I would say that the numbers are hard for even AA to get since Arpey, five years into this, said that he doesnt know if its more cost effective to do it in house or outsource. If he cant figure it out with his access then how could we?

What you fail to comprehend here is that when AA or an airline repair a part their focus is on quality, at AA they arent trying to do it for the profit, they actually want the part to work as if new, but when you send it out to those MROs they do it for profit, that means they want to invest as little as possible into the repair. The example I've used is the Emergency exit Power packs at AAR. The batteries for the packs had to be bonded to each other and the unit. AAR was so cheap they told us to tear the bonding straps off the old batteries and solder them on to the new ones instead of supplying new straps and spot welding them, because they didnt want to buy the straps or a spot welder. Well when you solder something it requires a lot of heat to add the solder and have it stick, that would heat the whole battery and often damage it, resulting in a high failure rate from stock. AAR didnt care because they just wanted to dump these things out there and get their money. Often these parts would go back to the airline sit on the shelves for months before they were needed and it was discovered that they werent any good.

The failure from stock rate from MROs is usually very high, even at AA where we still send some stuff out I got a call from my guys compalining about the crappy MD-80 APUs that they were getting from a vendor. They were concerned because sometimes they had to install more than one APU to get one that actually ran, what was worring them was the actual condition of the one that actually ran and if they should file an ASAP ahead of time.

 

[telebender1956]

"There may be quality guys in OKC and if they stick with 135s and C-17s fine but if all of a sudden they pull in a 757 or an MD-80 because they were the cheapest bidder its going to come out a mess. Is it because they are bad mechanics, no, its because the boss will put pressure on them to get it out without doing it right. "

Bob I worked at AAR in OKC for about 3 wks(about all I could take)...they were doing AK MD80s & UA 737s (as well as a commuter plane or two-forget who)when I was there. Word was AAR was the only MRO that would take there heavys after they crashed that MD80 in the pacific. QA/paperwork was a fricken nightmare!
The place was a real poop hole and full of a/p school grads, contractors(cause they can't get exp a/ps to come to wk for them)good ol boy system(from local Okla City boys). Coming from the airline industry, it was real eye opener. Just unbelievable. <_<

Btw, it was commonplace at FedEx to have electronic components(boxs, motors/actuators) to be "bad from stock"(from vendor). And FX outsources everything except line maint and B checks.

I had the same experience with Fed Ex B727 VENDOR Parts @ TULE in 1995-96.The FAILURE RATE from stock was so high on Elevator PCU's that FedEx would re-route their incoming Elevator PCU's [with 8130's] to AA Hydraulic Shop for OVERHAUL and pay us for doing them correctly.Now,really,what kind of bargain are MRO's ????

 

[Bob Owens]

"There may be quality guys in OKC and if they stick with 135s and C-17s fine but if all of a sudden they pull in a 757 or an MD-80 because they were the cheapest bidder its going to come out a mess. Is it because they are bad mechanics, no, its because the boss will put pressure on them to get it out without doing it right. "

Bob I worked at AAR in OKC for about 3 wks(about all I could take)...they were doing AK MD80s & UA 737s (as well as a commuter plane or two-forget who)when I was there. Word was AAR was the only MRO that would take there heavys after they crashed that MD80 in the pacific. QA/paperwork was a fricken nightmare!
The place was a real poop hole and full of a/p school grads, contractors(cause they can't get exp a/ps to come to wk for them)good ol boy system(from local Okla City boys). Coming from the airline industry, it was real eye opener. Just unbelievable. <_<

Btw, it was commonplace at FedEx to have electronic components(boxs, motors/actuators) to be "bad from stock"(from vendor). And FX outsources everything except line maint and B checks.

Those places are Aircraft Mechanic purgatories, or worse. I couldnt get out of their quick enough! Thats what EO doesnt get. When I showed my supervisor the problem with soldering in the batteries his response was 'Thats the way we do it here, if you dont like it theres the door" There was no Union, no "Whistleblower protection" and no ASAP back then, so I took the door option. What EO fails to realize is that with a Union you are less likely to be forced to do shoddy work. We put our names on what we do, for most, that means something.