I believe Mr. Tilton has promised to review things such as the '10 hour day'. Non pay items, which make lives better.
New vote on Thursday
- Thread starter atabuy
- Start date
In fact, if UAL restructures through the bankruptcy process many in the industry feel that AMR will have no choice but to follow.
The question for AMR will be how long to continue suffering huge losses while other carriers have already gone through the restructuring; voluntary or not.
The question for AMR will be how long to continue suffering huge losses while other carriers have already gone through the restructuring; voluntary or not.
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 6:51:05 PM kiowa wrote:
Its sad that some folks try to get others to fight their bloody battles for them. It is a sign of true weakness. UAL should not have to die so that Mr. Owens can feel rightous at NWA or Southwest or AA or wherever. Fight your battles at your own place of employment. Don't be such a weak d**k and flame topics at UAL. They have bled enough for their causes.
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[/blockquote]
Teach me how to be courageous like you!
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On 12/2/2002 6:51:05 PM kiowa wrote:
Its sad that some folks try to get others to fight their bloody battles for them. It is a sign of true weakness. UAL should not have to die so that Mr. Owens can feel rightous at NWA or Southwest or AA or wherever. Fight your battles at your own place of employment. Don't be such a weak d**k and flame topics at UAL. They have bled enough for their causes.
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[/blockquote]
Teach me how to be courageous like you!
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 6:52:01 PM willnotworkforfree wrote:
can someone explain " quality of work-life issues ".Thanks
Jim
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[/blockquote]
Definition -
We need you to vote again to save the union's ass-ets, we needed something to say to get another vote. This vote will pass regardless of how you vote. DUES MONEY
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On 12/2/2002 6:52:01 PM willnotworkforfree wrote:
can someone explain " quality of work-life issues ".Thanks
Jim
----------------
[/blockquote]
Definition -
We need you to vote again to save the union's ass-ets, we needed something to say to get another vote. This vote will pass regardless of how you vote. DUES MONEY
From an outsiders view, its weird. How many organizations out there are so dysfunctional like UA that they prefer virtual suicide?
Not many. Darwinism at work.
Not many. Darwinism at work.
Cut and Pasted from the AA board -
The UAL mechanics rejected the contract wage concessions.I hope the AA mechanics will not give back what we have fought for so many years to gain.I am almost sure DC will be asking for wage concessions after Christmas.The Company did not come to us and offer wage increases in the late 90's when record profits were being earned.They waited for our then current contract to expire before wage increases were offered.
WHY NO REPLY FROM BOB OWENS ON HIS OWN BOARD??????????
The UAL mechanics rejected the contract wage concessions.I hope the AA mechanics will not give back what we have fought for so many years to gain.I am almost sure DC will be asking for wage concessions after Christmas.The Company did not come to us and offer wage increases in the late 90's when record profits were being earned.They waited for our then current contract to expire before wage increases were offered.
WHY NO REPLY FROM BOB OWENS ON HIS OWN BOARD??????????
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 6
56 PM Cosmo wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 5:41:57 PM Bob Owens wrote:
So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate ...
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[/blockquote]
No, I think it's pretty obvious by now that you're here to protect the AMERICAN AIRLINES mechanic's rates. By exhorting the United mechanics to vote "no" a 2nd time, with the clear knowledge that a United bankruptcy filing will almost certainly occur within 48 hours after such a rejection, you're asking the United mechanics to protect YOUR pay rate at the likely cost of 25 percent or more of THEIR jobs (and ALL of their jobs if United liquidates). And with a smaller or non-existent United (and if United doesn't exist, US Airways will also very likely be gone), there is less likelihood that your wages at American will need to be reduced. In other words, you want the United mechanics to fall on their swords to protect you -- hardly a noble sentiment! BTW, there's your benefit, since you apparently haven't figured it out yet!
So you truly don't give a rat's a$$ about the United mechanics -- it's really just all about "you, you, you." And why don't you knock off the "What, I'm not gonna benefit!" line, because it's simply not true.
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[/blockquote]
AA rates, industry rates, are you saying that the two are not related? I dont know if UAL will file or not, can you guarantee that they will not file if they vote yes? Are you saying that if they agree to the concessions there will not be any more layoffs? Can you guarantee it? Is it in the agreement? What guarantees did you get for your concessions? Can you say that by the spring they are not coming back for more? When does it stop? I dont expect anyone to fall on their swords, I just hope they use them to fight.Right now its their time. I had no control over who goes first, there but for the grace of God (and my decision to reject Uniteds job offer in 1988) go I.
Regardless of its size, reduced pay at UAL will have a negative impact on our rates of pay. I beleive the accusation that I was answering was that I wanted UAL to liquidate because it would be good for AA. I responded that I saw no benifit to me, as a mechanic, from UALs liquidation. I laso said that what is good for the company is not always good for the workers-case in point-Long term concessions.
Cosmo- Didnt you used to post over on the USAIR board? Whats the matter you never saw a concessionary contract you did not like?
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On 12/2/2002 6
56 PM Cosmo wrote: [blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 5:41:57 PM Bob Owens wrote:
So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate ...
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[/blockquote]
No, I think it's pretty obvious by now that you're here to protect the AMERICAN AIRLINES mechanic's rates. By exhorting the United mechanics to vote "no" a 2nd time, with the clear knowledge that a United bankruptcy filing will almost certainly occur within 48 hours after such a rejection, you're asking the United mechanics to protect YOUR pay rate at the likely cost of 25 percent or more of THEIR jobs (and ALL of their jobs if United liquidates). And with a smaller or non-existent United (and if United doesn't exist, US Airways will also very likely be gone), there is less likelihood that your wages at American will need to be reduced. In other words, you want the United mechanics to fall on their swords to protect you -- hardly a noble sentiment! BTW, there's your benefit, since you apparently haven't figured it out yet!
So you truly don't give a rat's a$$ about the United mechanics -- it's really just all about "you, you, you." And why don't you knock off the "What, I'm not gonna benefit!" line, because it's simply not true.
----------------
[/blockquote]
AA rates, industry rates, are you saying that the two are not related? I dont know if UAL will file or not, can you guarantee that they will not file if they vote yes? Are you saying that if they agree to the concessions there will not be any more layoffs? Can you guarantee it? Is it in the agreement? What guarantees did you get for your concessions? Can you say that by the spring they are not coming back for more? When does it stop? I dont expect anyone to fall on their swords, I just hope they use them to fight.Right now its their time. I had no control over who goes first, there but for the grace of God (and my decision to reject Uniteds job offer in 1988) go I.
Regardless of its size, reduced pay at UAL will have a negative impact on our rates of pay. I beleive the accusation that I was answering was that I wanted UAL to liquidate because it would be good for AA. I responded that I saw no benifit to me, as a mechanic, from UALs liquidation. I laso said that what is good for the company is not always good for the workers-case in point-Long term concessions.
Cosmo- Didnt you used to post over on the USAIR board? Whats the matter you never saw a concessionary contract you did not like?
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 7:56:28 PM flythewing wrote:
I believe Mr. Tilton has promised to review things such as the '10 hour day'. Non pay items, which make lives better.
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[/blockquote]
Yea so he will look at it and then what?
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On 12/2/2002 7:56:28 PM flythewing wrote:
I believe Mr. Tilton has promised to review things such as the '10 hour day'. Non pay items, which make lives better.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Yea so he will look at it and then what?
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 6:40:22 PM eolesen wrote:
Instead of accusing Bob (or any other non-UAL employee) of having a conflict of interest or looking out for personal gain, perhaps it is the very opposite situation.
Just as labor is quick to point to the industry leading contract as the new benchmark, we all know that the opposite also happens... There's some thought that if UAL votes in wage reductions or work rule changes, that there will be a ripple effect at other carriers.
That's how I'm reading Bob's posts, both here and over on the US Airways board. Perhaps this is more about "defending the profession," to borrow a term from a previous management/labor battle...
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[/blockquote]
Thanks. But understand that my position at AA will be no concessions even if UAL gets theirs.
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On 12/2/2002 6:40:22 PM eolesen wrote:
Instead of accusing Bob (or any other non-UAL employee) of having a conflict of interest or looking out for personal gain, perhaps it is the very opposite situation.
Just as labor is quick to point to the industry leading contract as the new benchmark, we all know that the opposite also happens... There's some thought that if UAL votes in wage reductions or work rule changes, that there will be a ripple effect at other carriers.
That's how I'm reading Bob's posts, both here and over on the US Airways board. Perhaps this is more about "defending the profession," to borrow a term from a previous management/labor battle...
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[/blockquote]
Thanks. But understand that my position at AA will be no concessions even if UAL gets theirs.
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 8:32:51 PM flythewing wrote:
Cut and Pasted from the AA board -
The UAL mechanics rejected the contract wage concessions.I hope the AA mechanics will not give back what we have fought for so many years to gain.I am almost sure DC will be asking for wage concessions after Christmas.The Company did not come to us and offer wage increases in the late 90's when record profits were being earned.They waited for our then current contract to expire before wage increases were offered.
WHY NO REPLY FROM BOB OWENS ON HIS OWN BOARD??????????
----------------
[/blockquote]
Because here is where the action is.
Besides I have my own thread here. I'm flattered.
It seems that since some have trouble disputing what I've written they are questioning my motives. Well I think I've been pretty up front about that. While those in favor of a yes vote resort to threats on economic and even physical harm if the mechanics dont vote yes I've put forth the fact that the mechanics have choices, the area they may be entering is unchartered and all the so called experts really are just guessing when they make it seem that they are talking facts. There are several possible outcomes. Time will tell who was right and who was wrong. Who was right in 94, the Yes voters or the No voters? Things can change quickly, but your contract will not change for 6 years if you vote yes, although that is not entirely certain either, the only thing that is certain is that if you vote Yes it will not get better. The best that you can possibly hope for is that six years from now you will be earning exactly what you are earning today, a six year pay freeze would be better. Just think of it this way, you will return to this rate of pay when your 7th grader of today is entering her freshman year of college, or would have been if you had fought for a decent wage. The uncertainties are, will we go to War with Iraq? Will UAL still file for C-11 even if the mechanics vote yes? Will UAL still have massive layoffs and come back for more? Will UAL recover by simply slashing wages instead of changing the way they do business? Why should you be forced to agree to long term concessions without any proof that it will make a difference? How different is Tilton to Seigal to Carty to Crandall to Borman to Lorenzo? They all come with promises of change and a better future, one has to wonder if they are all interchangable and the result has as much to do with chance than leadership. While I've asked several of my opponents on this board several questions their response generally seems to be to avoid the question or say that I do not work for United. I dont work for United. So what? Does the pilot or the analyst that works for United really think that he has more in common with a United Airlines Mechanic simply because he works for the same company? Next week that mechanic will revert back to being the lazy grease monkey in their eyes, who is kidding who here? Team work mutual sacrifice my ass, its still pilots for pilots and everyone else for themselves.
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On 12/2/2002 8:32:51 PM flythewing wrote:
Cut and Pasted from the AA board -
The UAL mechanics rejected the contract wage concessions.I hope the AA mechanics will not give back what we have fought for so many years to gain.I am almost sure DC will be asking for wage concessions after Christmas.The Company did not come to us and offer wage increases in the late 90's when record profits were being earned.They waited for our then current contract to expire before wage increases were offered.
WHY NO REPLY FROM BOB OWENS ON HIS OWN BOARD??????????
----------------
[/blockquote]
Because here is where the action is.
Besides I have my own thread here. I'm flattered.
It seems that since some have trouble disputing what I've written they are questioning my motives. Well I think I've been pretty up front about that. While those in favor of a yes vote resort to threats on economic and even physical harm if the mechanics dont vote yes I've put forth the fact that the mechanics have choices, the area they may be entering is unchartered and all the so called experts really are just guessing when they make it seem that they are talking facts. There are several possible outcomes. Time will tell who was right and who was wrong. Who was right in 94, the Yes voters or the No voters? Things can change quickly, but your contract will not change for 6 years if you vote yes, although that is not entirely certain either, the only thing that is certain is that if you vote Yes it will not get better. The best that you can possibly hope for is that six years from now you will be earning exactly what you are earning today, a six year pay freeze would be better. Just think of it this way, you will return to this rate of pay when your 7th grader of today is entering her freshman year of college, or would have been if you had fought for a decent wage. The uncertainties are, will we go to War with Iraq? Will UAL still file for C-11 even if the mechanics vote yes? Will UAL still have massive layoffs and come back for more? Will UAL recover by simply slashing wages instead of changing the way they do business? Why should you be forced to agree to long term concessions without any proof that it will make a difference? How different is Tilton to Seigal to Carty to Crandall to Borman to Lorenzo? They all come with promises of change and a better future, one has to wonder if they are all interchangable and the result has as much to do with chance than leadership. While I've asked several of my opponents on this board several questions their response generally seems to be to avoid the question or say that I do not work for United. I dont work for United. So what? Does the pilot or the analyst that works for United really think that he has more in common with a United Airlines Mechanic simply because he works for the same company? Next week that mechanic will revert back to being the lazy grease monkey in their eyes, who is kidding who here? Team work mutual sacrifice my ass, its still pilots for pilots and everyone else for themselves.
****I am not American Airlines. Everything that benifits the company does not neccisarily benifit the workers. Case in point- Long Term Concessions
If AA expands that does not neccisarly mean that my compensation will be increased because the going rate has more to do with compensation than the size of the airline-look at what SWAs mechanics make. Your interest in the mechanics vote is to preserve the senoirity and salary that you are unlikely to replace should UAL fail.******
Bob, I couldn't disagree more. Looking at the "SWA for AMFA Industry Pay Scales", whose link was put up in a previous post somewhere on usaviation, the largest airlines in the industry also had the best paid mechanics. I realize that there is more to compensation than just pay, but looking at the chart, the DAL, AMR, and UAL mechanics of the world we're making somewhere around $70,000/yr at top scale, while the America Wests, Alaskas, and such were topping out at about $50,000/yr. The jet commuters were in the 30's per year. My point? If UAL dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow, AMR would grow, and undoubtedly with decreased competition profits would grow, and therefore your career opportunity as an AMR mechanic, both financially and from a growth standpoint, would increase. To suggest that a thriving, growing AMR isn't going to make one whit of difference in your compensation is ridiculous. There would be upward pressure on EVERYONES' salary at AMR, and probably DAL, CAL, and every other major in the US in the long term as they grew to fill the void left by a failed UAL.
******So those 4 day weeks away from home, is that every week or do you do that once a month and have off for a week or two?******
Well Bob, I thought you would know the answer to this since you had no problem stating how little I worked, since I "only work 75 hours a month." I'll assume you got that little tid bit of information from the money section of USA today during one of your breaks, and that you don't have a clue as to how my schedule works and were just trying to make an inflammatory statement.
Here's a snapshot of what our schedule looks like. For the A320 for the month of JAN, 89 lines of flying out of about 250 had our slacker pilots away from home or on a beeper for about 18 days of the month, a good chunk of these lines involving all night flying. 75 lines of flying had our lazy pilots away from home from 15 to 17 days a month. 78 lines of flying had our pilots away from home from 13 to 14 days a month. And 2 whole lines had 2 lucky guys away from home only 12 days per month. About 85% of our lines had our pilots away from home on the road AT LEAST 14 days per month. Yup, we only work 75 hours a month. Perhaps you should have said we only get PAID 75 hours a month.
****Look, I've said it before that pilots should be well paid but when you guys tell mechanics that their cuts are puny and that they should accept cuts then you have to expect a little flack back*****
I never said they were puny, but they're a heck of a lot less than my 18%.
******So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate.....*
That's exactly my problem with your posts. You're an AA mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate by telling UA mechanics to vote "no" when the consequences of those actions would lead to a UA bankruptcy which would in turn more than likely benefit you and American Airlines in the long run.
****and your here as a pilot telling mechanics that they should be willing to lower that rate so you can keep what you have. Whats the difference?*******
The difference is that I happen to like United Airlines and the people who work here and would like to see OUR airline grow and prosper. I WORK HERE and I want to retire here. You're here, by your own statement as a "mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate." See the difference now?
****Yea and you never did say what your salary was, only how much you were losing****
You're right, I didn't and I wouldn't. Let's just say that I make a comfortable union salary that reflects the sacrifices and responsibilites of my occupation. If you think I'm overpaid, too bad!
If AA expands that does not neccisarly mean that my compensation will be increased because the going rate has more to do with compensation than the size of the airline-look at what SWAs mechanics make. Your interest in the mechanics vote is to preserve the senoirity and salary that you are unlikely to replace should UAL fail.******
Bob, I couldn't disagree more. Looking at the "SWA for AMFA Industry Pay Scales", whose link was put up in a previous post somewhere on usaviation, the largest airlines in the industry also had the best paid mechanics. I realize that there is more to compensation than just pay, but looking at the chart, the DAL, AMR, and UAL mechanics of the world we're making somewhere around $70,000/yr at top scale, while the America Wests, Alaskas, and such were topping out at about $50,000/yr. The jet commuters were in the 30's per year. My point? If UAL dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow, AMR would grow, and undoubtedly with decreased competition profits would grow, and therefore your career opportunity as an AMR mechanic, both financially and from a growth standpoint, would increase. To suggest that a thriving, growing AMR isn't going to make one whit of difference in your compensation is ridiculous. There would be upward pressure on EVERYONES' salary at AMR, and probably DAL, CAL, and every other major in the US in the long term as they grew to fill the void left by a failed UAL.
******So those 4 day weeks away from home, is that every week or do you do that once a month and have off for a week or two?******
Well Bob, I thought you would know the answer to this since you had no problem stating how little I worked, since I "only work 75 hours a month." I'll assume you got that little tid bit of information from the money section of USA today during one of your breaks, and that you don't have a clue as to how my schedule works and were just trying to make an inflammatory statement.
Here's a snapshot of what our schedule looks like. For the A320 for the month of JAN, 89 lines of flying out of about 250 had our slacker pilots away from home or on a beeper for about 18 days of the month, a good chunk of these lines involving all night flying. 75 lines of flying had our lazy pilots away from home from 15 to 17 days a month. 78 lines of flying had our pilots away from home from 13 to 14 days a month. And 2 whole lines had 2 lucky guys away from home only 12 days per month. About 85% of our lines had our pilots away from home on the road AT LEAST 14 days per month. Yup, we only work 75 hours a month. Perhaps you should have said we only get PAID 75 hours a month.
****Look, I've said it before that pilots should be well paid but when you guys tell mechanics that their cuts are puny and that they should accept cuts then you have to expect a little flack back*****
I never said they were puny, but they're a heck of a lot less than my 18%.
******So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate.....*
That's exactly my problem with your posts. You're an AA mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate by telling UA mechanics to vote "no" when the consequences of those actions would lead to a UA bankruptcy which would in turn more than likely benefit you and American Airlines in the long run.
****and your here as a pilot telling mechanics that they should be willing to lower that rate so you can keep what you have. Whats the difference?*******
The difference is that I happen to like United Airlines and the people who work here and would like to see OUR airline grow and prosper. I WORK HERE and I want to retire here. You're here, by your own statement as a "mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate." See the difference now?
****Yea and you never did say what your salary was, only how much you were losing****
You're right, I didn't and I wouldn't. Let's just say that I make a comfortable union salary that reflects the sacrifices and responsibilites of my occupation. If you think I'm overpaid, too bad!
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 10:13:54 PM ualdriver wrote:
****I am not American Airlines. Everything that benifits the company does not neccisarily benifit the workers. Case in point- Long Term Concessions
If AA expands that does not neccisarly mean that my compensation will be increased because the going rate has more to do with compensation than the size of the airline-look at what SWAs mechanics make. Your interest in the mechanics vote is to preserve the senoirity and salary that you are unlikely to replace should UAL fail.******
Bob, I couldn't disagree more. Looking at the "SWA for AMFA Industry Pay Scales", whose link was put up in a previous post somewhere on usaviation, the largest airlines in the industry also had the best paid mechanics. I realize that there is more to compensation than just pay, but looking at the chart, the DAL, AMR, and UAL mechanics of the world we're making somewhere around $70,000/yr at top scale, while the America Wests, Alaskas, and such were topping out at about $50,000/yr. The jet commuters were in the 30's per year. My point? If UAL dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow, AMR would grow, and undoubtedly with decreased competition profits would grow, and therefore your career opportunity as an AMR mechanic, both financially and from a growth standpoint, would increase. To suggest that a thriving, growing AMR isn't going to make one whit of difference in your compensation is ridiculous. There would be upward pressure on EVERYONES' salary at AMR, and probably DAL, CAL, and every other major in the US in the long term as they grew to fill the void left by a failed UAL.
******So those 4 day weeks away from home, is that every week or do you do that once a month and have off for a week or two?******
Well Bob, I thought you would know the answer to this since you had no problem stating how little I worked, since I "only work 75 hours a month." I'll assume you got that little tid bit of information from the money section of USA today during one of your breaks, and that you don't have a clue as to how my schedule works and were just trying to make an inflammatory statement.
Here's a snapshot of what our schedule looks like. For the A320 for the month of JAN, 89 lines of flying out of about 250 had our slacker pilots away from home or on a beeper for about 18 days of the month, a good chunk of these lines involving all night flying. 75 lines of flying had our lazy pilots away from home from 15 to 17 days a month. 78 lines of flying had our pilots away from home from 13 to 14 days a month. And 2 whole lines had 2 lucky guys away from home only 12 days per month. About 85% of our lines had our pilots away from home on the road AT LEAST 14 days per month. Yup, we only work 75 hours a month. Perhaps you should have said we only get PAID 75 hours a month.
****Look, I've said it before that pilots should be well paid but when you guys tell mechanics that their cuts are puny and that they should accept cuts then you have to expect a little flack back*****
I never said they were puny, but they're a heck of a lot less than my 18%.
******So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate.....*
That's exactly my problem with your posts. You're an AA mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate by telling UA mechanics to vote "no" when the consequences of those actions would lead to a UA bankruptcy which would in turn more than likely benefit you and American Airlines in the long run.
****and your here as a pilot telling mechanics that they should be willing to lower that rate so you can keep what you have. Whats the difference?*******
The difference is that I happen to like United Airlines and the people who work here and would like to see OUR airline grow and prosper. I WORK HERE and I want to retire here. You're here, by your own statement as a "mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate." See the difference now?
****Yea and you never did say what your salary was, only how much you were losing****
You're right, I didn't and I wouldn't. Let's just say that I make a comfortable union salary that reflects the sacrifices and responsibilites of my occupation. If you think I'm overpaid, too bad!
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[/blockquote]
I didnt actually say that you only work 75 hours a month.Here is what I said and I beleive it is accurate;"However others want you to take a cut so that they can keep their six figure 75 hour a month job."
As far as expansion and your thoughts on it that simply highlights the difference between mechanics and pilots. I am where I want to be. I've passed up opportunities to be Crew Cheif, Inspector and even management. I'm satisfied staying a mechanic. A lot of mechanics feel the same way. Crew Cheif is a hassle, Inspection would put me on night shift and well lets just say that I'm not management material. UAL droping out would if anything be a setback. Then AA biggest competitor would be non-union Delta who could slash their mechanics wages down to the $50s and put pressure on our mechanics to be competative. UAL would also dump 13,000 extra mechanics into the market.No, having UAL disappear would not be a plus for us.
"You're right, I didn't and I wouldn't. Let's just say that I make a comfortable union salary that reflects the sacrifices and responsibilites of my occupation. If you think I'm overpaid, too bad!"
So while you sit back and relax with your comfortable well deserved union salary you are chastizing UA mechanics for trying to preserve the same.
You're very sensitive about your pay arent you? When have I ever said you were overpaid? Why wont you say how much you make you make? We dont know who UALdriver is. Its not like its personal, we dont even have your name. What are you hiding? You want all the mechanics at UAL to vote as you did but you wont even let them know what you make.Not gross figures just your hourly rate. I know there are a whole lot of hours that you dont paid for, you have to put in 120 hours to get 75 and all that but what are the numbers?
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On 12/2/2002 10:13:54 PM ualdriver wrote:
****I am not American Airlines. Everything that benifits the company does not neccisarily benifit the workers. Case in point- Long Term Concessions
If AA expands that does not neccisarly mean that my compensation will be increased because the going rate has more to do with compensation than the size of the airline-look at what SWAs mechanics make. Your interest in the mechanics vote is to preserve the senoirity and salary that you are unlikely to replace should UAL fail.******
Bob, I couldn't disagree more. Looking at the "SWA for AMFA Industry Pay Scales", whose link was put up in a previous post somewhere on usaviation, the largest airlines in the industry also had the best paid mechanics. I realize that there is more to compensation than just pay, but looking at the chart, the DAL, AMR, and UAL mechanics of the world we're making somewhere around $70,000/yr at top scale, while the America Wests, Alaskas, and such were topping out at about $50,000/yr. The jet commuters were in the 30's per year. My point? If UAL dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow, AMR would grow, and undoubtedly with decreased competition profits would grow, and therefore your career opportunity as an AMR mechanic, both financially and from a growth standpoint, would increase. To suggest that a thriving, growing AMR isn't going to make one whit of difference in your compensation is ridiculous. There would be upward pressure on EVERYONES' salary at AMR, and probably DAL, CAL, and every other major in the US in the long term as they grew to fill the void left by a failed UAL.
******So those 4 day weeks away from home, is that every week or do you do that once a month and have off for a week or two?******
Well Bob, I thought you would know the answer to this since you had no problem stating how little I worked, since I "only work 75 hours a month." I'll assume you got that little tid bit of information from the money section of USA today during one of your breaks, and that you don't have a clue as to how my schedule works and were just trying to make an inflammatory statement.
Here's a snapshot of what our schedule looks like. For the A320 for the month of JAN, 89 lines of flying out of about 250 had our slacker pilots away from home or on a beeper for about 18 days of the month, a good chunk of these lines involving all night flying. 75 lines of flying had our lazy pilots away from home from 15 to 17 days a month. 78 lines of flying had our pilots away from home from 13 to 14 days a month. And 2 whole lines had 2 lucky guys away from home only 12 days per month. About 85% of our lines had our pilots away from home on the road AT LEAST 14 days per month. Yup, we only work 75 hours a month. Perhaps you should have said we only get PAID 75 hours a month.
****Look, I've said it before that pilots should be well paid but when you guys tell mechanics that their cuts are puny and that they should accept cuts then you have to expect a little flack back*****
I never said they were puny, but they're a heck of a lot less than my 18%.
******So I'm here as a mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate.....*
That's exactly my problem with your posts. You're an AA mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate by telling UA mechanics to vote "no" when the consequences of those actions would lead to a UA bankruptcy which would in turn more than likely benefit you and American Airlines in the long run.
****and your here as a pilot telling mechanics that they should be willing to lower that rate so you can keep what you have. Whats the difference?*******
The difference is that I happen to like United Airlines and the people who work here and would like to see OUR airline grow and prosper. I WORK HERE and I want to retire here. You're here, by your own statement as a "mechanic trying to preserve the industry rate." See the difference now?
****Yea and you never did say what your salary was, only how much you were losing****
You're right, I didn't and I wouldn't. Let's just say that I make a comfortable union salary that reflects the sacrifices and responsibilites of my occupation. If you think I'm overpaid, too bad!
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I didnt actually say that you only work 75 hours a month.Here is what I said and I beleive it is accurate;"However others want you to take a cut so that they can keep their six figure 75 hour a month job."
As far as expansion and your thoughts on it that simply highlights the difference between mechanics and pilots. I am where I want to be. I've passed up opportunities to be Crew Cheif, Inspector and even management. I'm satisfied staying a mechanic. A lot of mechanics feel the same way. Crew Cheif is a hassle, Inspection would put me on night shift and well lets just say that I'm not management material. UAL droping out would if anything be a setback. Then AA biggest competitor would be non-union Delta who could slash their mechanics wages down to the $50s and put pressure on our mechanics to be competative. UAL would also dump 13,000 extra mechanics into the market.No, having UAL disappear would not be a plus for us.
"You're right, I didn't and I wouldn't. Let's just say that I make a comfortable union salary that reflects the sacrifices and responsibilites of my occupation. If you think I'm overpaid, too bad!"
So while you sit back and relax with your comfortable well deserved union salary you are chastizing UA mechanics for trying to preserve the same.
You're very sensitive about your pay arent you? When have I ever said you were overpaid? Why wont you say how much you make you make? We dont know who UALdriver is. Its not like its personal, we dont even have your name. What are you hiding? You want all the mechanics at UAL to vote as you did but you wont even let them know what you make.Not gross figures just your hourly rate. I know there are a whole lot of hours that you dont paid for, you have to put in 120 hours to get 75 and all that but what are the numbers?
For those that think the IAM can't bus in the kitchen workers for ESOPII.
District 141-M IAMAW Tentative Agreement Ratification Vote LL2294
Thursday December 5th , 2002
Location: The IMC (Indianapolis Maintenance Facility)
Between the Glass Doors and Hanger 1A (where the bid is posted).
Polls will be open from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.
District 141-M IAMAW Tentative Agreement Ratification Vote LL2294
Thursday December 5th , 2002
Location: The IMC (Indianapolis Maintenance Facility)
Between the Glass Doors and Hanger 1A (where the bid is posted).
Polls will be open from 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.
[blockquote]
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On 12/2/2002 6:40:22 PM eolesen wrote:
Instead of accusing Bob (or any other non-UAL employee) of having a conflict of interest or looking out for personal gain, perhaps it is the very opposite situation.
Just as labor is quick to point to the industry leading contract as the new benchmark, we all know that the opposite also happens... There's some thought that if UAL votes in wage reductions or work rule changes, that there will be a ripple effect at other carriers.
That's how I'm reading Bob's posts, both here and over on the US Airways board. Perhaps this is more about "defending the profession", to borrow a term from a previous management/labor battle...
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eolesen, you've called it correctly. It also is the sentiment of the UAL mechanics at my station. A case of the concession you vote in now haunting you on your next job. As mechanics say, "Build a thousand houses, and nobody calls you a carpenter."
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On 12/2/2002 6:40:22 PM eolesen wrote:
Instead of accusing Bob (or any other non-UAL employee) of having a conflict of interest or looking out for personal gain, perhaps it is the very opposite situation.
Just as labor is quick to point to the industry leading contract as the new benchmark, we all know that the opposite also happens... There's some thought that if UAL votes in wage reductions or work rule changes, that there will be a ripple effect at other carriers.
That's how I'm reading Bob's posts, both here and over on the US Airways board. Perhaps this is more about "defending the profession", to borrow a term from a previous management/labor battle...
----------------
[/blockquote]
eolesen, you've called it correctly. It also is the sentiment of the UAL mechanics at my station. A case of the concession you vote in now haunting you on your next job. As mechanics say, "Build a thousand houses, and nobody calls you a carpenter."
