Nothing wrong with the Nicalou
- Thread starter AWA320
- Start date
TWA did in fact liquidate. AA purchased selected assets for cash and assumed certain liabilities leaving the TWA corporate shell to disburse that cash to it's creditors. The judge said that TWA was going to file regardless because THEY RAN OUT OF CASH.
exB717Flyer
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Yes, it eventually did, but the point was TWA filed Chap 11 (known as a restructuring) on January 8, 2001, specifically to accede to Carty's demand. There wasn't any other reason to file at that specific moment.
There's a difference bewteen "ran out of cash" and "running out of cash". There's no question that TWA was hurting but as we all know airlines can continue to operate in that condition for a long, long time. And there was also a Plan B (involving a take-over firm) if the AA thing didn't happen. This is a fact verified from Bob Pastore, the former TWA MEC Chairman and Member of the BOD. No quarantee it would've succeeded but there was a plan.
What is wrong with the award...?
In a nutshell, the premise is flawed...
That all "furloughed pilots" belonged behind the most junior "active" HP pilot. That's not what happened.
Over 300 US pilots were on active service flying the E-170, during the same time "Save Dave" was hired... Pilots with hire dates 15 years, to only a few months prior to "Dave's" (meaning all pilots on the AAA list should be considered).
Being as US Airways did have a recall (well prior to the merger snapshot) into the E-170, and these pilots were furloughed from US Airways AFTER the merger, they should have been considered withthe rest of the active pilots of both US and HP.
If they were not active US Airways pilots, then WHY did the arbitrator deny the HP pilot's petition to have the 04/05 AAA Newhires (flying the E-170) removed from the list...?
Why do you think AWA ALPA wanted these pilots removed from the merged list...?
Because it is illogical that the F/O's flying the E-170 were considered "active enough" to still be included (at the back of) the merged senority list, but neither the E-170 Captains or F/O's positions be slotted in with the rest of the active US and HP positions.
And before you go saying the E-170 was not a "real" mainline aircraft, it was as real, if not moreso than the Dash 8's some of your senior pilots flew, and recv'd LOS credit for when it came time to blend the lists...
Basically, you cannot have it both ways.
If the E-170 F/O's service was real enough for these pilots to be retained on the list, then so should the E-170 Captain's activity (at the same time). If your past Dash 8 flying was America West, then so was the E-170 flying US Airways'.
"Save Dave" should have been blended in next to the most junior pilot on the AAA list, who was hired at the same time "Dave" was...
A snapshot is supposed to be a snapshot of THAT moment, not a wishy-washy use this list from then, and this list from there method.
I wasn't on furlough when "Save Dave" was hired, and neither were many of the guys that were placed behind him.
Pretending we were is what makes this arbration dead wrong.
In a nutshell, the premise is flawed...
That all "furloughed pilots" belonged behind the most junior "active" HP pilot. That's not what happened.
Over 300 US pilots were on active service flying the E-170, during the same time "Save Dave" was hired... Pilots with hire dates 15 years, to only a few months prior to "Dave's" (meaning all pilots on the AAA list should be considered).
Being as US Airways did have a recall (well prior to the merger snapshot) into the E-170, and these pilots were furloughed from US Airways AFTER the merger, they should have been considered withthe rest of the active pilots of both US and HP.
If they were not active US Airways pilots, then WHY did the arbitrator deny the HP pilot's petition to have the 04/05 AAA Newhires (flying the E-170) removed from the list...?
Why do you think AWA ALPA wanted these pilots removed from the merged list...?
Because it is illogical that the F/O's flying the E-170 were considered "active enough" to still be included (at the back of) the merged senority list, but neither the E-170 Captains or F/O's positions be slotted in with the rest of the active US and HP positions.
And before you go saying the E-170 was not a "real" mainline aircraft, it was as real, if not moreso than the Dash 8's some of your senior pilots flew, and recv'd LOS credit for when it came time to blend the lists...
Basically, you cannot have it both ways.
If the E-170 F/O's service was real enough for these pilots to be retained on the list, then so should the E-170 Captain's activity (at the same time). If your past Dash 8 flying was America West, then so was the E-170 flying US Airways'.
"Save Dave" should have been blended in next to the most junior pilot on the AAA list, who was hired at the same time "Dave" was...
A snapshot is supposed to be a snapshot of THAT moment, not a wishy-washy use this list from then, and this list from there method.
I wasn't on furlough when "Save Dave" was hired, and neither were many of the guys that were placed behind him.
Pretending we were is what makes this arbration dead wrong.
oldiebutgoody
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Just to add to Rico's comments, I don't see why furlough guys aren't given full credit for their service once they return. By definition a furlough is a temporary condition. That tells me that the company DOES INDEED intend to use these folks in the future. Everybody I talk to about this (non airline and folks of other airlines, not pilots) think that anything else is absurd. How can you even call it a seniority list if folks aren't given credit for ALL of their service. Nicolau came up with an absolutely insane solution to this issue, and it needs to be addressed, or else future ALPA mergers will be similarly screwed up. Before you jump on what I'm saying, realize that I do not work at LCC, I've just been observing the insanity presently taking place there. Also, I don't think that the financial conditions of either company should be considered in any merger, for the mere fact that if the acquiring company did not feel that the acquired company had value to their system, they would not acquire them. Therefore their is a mutual need in these mergers, especially in the airline industry, where airlines can go from awash in cash to broke with a stroke of an analyst's pen.
b737fo
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The difference between the E-170 and Dash 8 flying was that the E-170 flying was done under the MDA division while when the Dash 8s were around the West they were flown by AWA not a separate certificate or division. I personally don't believe that justifies what happened with the MDA guys but that was the way these two companies decided to structure their fleet.
AWA320
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Insults, demands, we are entitled, I should be given this even though I have been furlough for 6 yrs, how about fences, AWA should sacrifice ALL for us because we have suffered sooo much, you were in grade school when I was flying.
The award is more than fair, you top 517 got windfalls, your furloughs who had no chance of ever returning with this arrangement are now employed, the east will get the lions share of ANY NEW CONTRACT and you still demanding more at our expense?!?!?
You were given every opportunity to work this out PRIOR to going into arb and you flatout refused now you have the nerve after you were stupid as hell in your all or nothing approach to demand that we give more.
I could care less what you do anymore, beg ALPA to force this to a lawsuit based on even more of your flawed logic and I'm entitled mentality.
You want deals yet you have absolutly nothing to deal with so in reality it's just gimme gimme gimme!!!
I will not vote to give you one more thing at our expense NOTHING!!!! :angry:
The award is more than fair, you top 517 got windfalls, your furloughs who had no chance of ever returning with this arrangement are now employed, the east will get the lions share of ANY NEW CONTRACT and you still demanding more at our expense?!?!?
You were given every opportunity to work this out PRIOR to going into arb and you flatout refused now you have the nerve after you were stupid as hell in your all or nothing approach to demand that we give more.
I could care less what you do anymore, beg ALPA to force this to a lawsuit based on even more of your flawed logic and I'm entitled mentality.
You want deals yet you have absolutly nothing to deal with so in reality it's just gimme gimme gimme!!!
I will not vote to give you one more thing at our expense NOTHING!!!! :angry:
Hawkhunter
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b737fo
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I love all of the militant types on both sides of this situation. The "you'll NEVER get anything from me" machismos who are clever enough to come up with gems such as "land grabbing rookies" and "a bunch of whining pilots with a large sense of entitlement". It's no wonder that it is easy to be walked all over by management when we don't have an ounce of respect for our peers. Don't get me wrong. I have opinions on this arbitration that don't align with those on the East but to debase ourselves to name calling and saber rattling shows a lack of respect to our predecessors and our profession as a whole. Let's grow up and keep the name calling to the kids on the playground. It is embarrassing to see fellow pilots act in such a manner on public message boards.
EyeInTheSky
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AWA320
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Sounds like your getting a little nervous. You keep saying the same crap which is still wrong. What expense are you talking about? You just want to cash in on your land grab. It will not happen anytime soon pal. Talk about entitled mentality. Oh my! AWA320 is angry, I just pissed myself.
Nervous??? Hardly. Pissed off at the constant begging and I deserve mentailty!!
Waht land grab?????????? No one on the planet can see this but unemployed furloughed pilots from a carrier that doesn't exist anymore! Land grab ha my careeer has been set back years are a result of this arrangement so I fail to see a land grab at all.
I do see that same old I'm entitled mentality. You eastie should just hire a lawyer at your expense and take this ruling to federal court and be done with it already. You feel that strongly that an error occured let the federal courts decide.
I can see the head lines now, Court decides in favor of the original award and you easties accuse the judge of being too old to sit on the bench....
ENTITLED MENTALITY...
Nervous??? Hardly. Pissed off at the constant begging and I deserve mentailty!!
Waht land grab?????????? No one on the planet can see this but unemployed furloughed pilots from a carrier that doesn't exist anymore! Land grab ha my careeer has been set back years are a result of this arrangement so I fail to see a land grab at all.
I do see that same old I'm entitled mentality. You eastie should just hire a lawyer at your expense and take this ruling to federal court and be done with it already. You feel that strongly that an error occured let the federal courts decide.
I can see the head lines now, Court decides in favor of the original award and you easties accuse the judge of being too old to sit on the bench....
ENTITLED MENTALITY...
Hawkhunter
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[ Land grab ha my careeer has been set back years are a result of this arrangement so I fail to see a land grab at all.
But where will you be in 5 years compared to us? That is why you Westies are so determined to keep things the way they are. You know you got a windfall and you want to cash in. The same old song that AAA wouldnt be here is crap so come up with something else. I am sorry that we dont bend over for you so your WINDFALL can come sooner. Once again your last offer would of put me behind "Save Dave" so what are you yapping about you girls and boys tried to work with us. Lets just see what happens bubba. Either way you will not be stealing our seats anytime soon. Hugs and kisses.
But where will you be in 5 years compared to us? That is why you Westies are so determined to keep things the way they are. You know you got a windfall and you want to cash in. The same old song that AAA wouldnt be here is crap so come up with something else. I am sorry that we dont bend over for you so your WINDFALL can come sooner. Once again your last offer would of put me behind "Save Dave" so what are you yapping about you girls and boys tried to work with us. Lets just see what happens bubba. Either way you will not be stealing our seats anytime soon. Hugs and kisses.
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
Hawk,
Won't it be interesting when ALPA MEC throws the 'award' out? I guess their Nicolau lottery dreams will disappear into the desert ghetto sunset.
Later,
Eye
Won't it be interesting when ALPA MEC throws the 'award' out? I guess their Nicolau lottery dreams will disappear into the desert ghetto sunset.
Later,
Eye
Ardenian
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When did you come ovevr to the PHL reps line of thinking?
When this thing first came out, you were telling us to negotiate for more aircraft, weren't you?
nostradamus
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other famous b737 quotes below trying to preach and keep us all together. Thank you Reverend b737fo for your "constant" positive quotes.
b737fo
"I love it. There are so many glass half empty posters on this board. I guess it is no surprise really with what the East has been through but it us just a little fascinating to watch the posts that will knock anything that is new or fresh. I think this group would boo Santa Claus. Flame away...."
b737fo
"Well if I don't get to fly to Belgium that means I also don't have pilots without active jobs during the merger jumping ahead of me. Sounds like a good trade off for me. Enjoy Europe.
Best Wishes
b737fo"
"I may not have longevity but you know 15 longevity only got a pilot a bottom feeder position on the East list anyway."
b737fo
"See you out west when you bring your 20 years with you. Remember to bid A320 flying in the summer."
