Operational Meltdown Thoughts
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
As for the statement that US obtained extra revenue because of Comair’s problems, it is very wishful (delusional) thinking to believe that US gained anything out of Comair’s problems. The economics are never favorable for any airline when irregular operations as prevalent as they were at either Comair or USAirways. If US had delivered on the service it agreed to provide by accepting DL/Comair passengers, they might have made some money on the deal. Given that many of those passengers were themselves misconnected by US or lost luggage, US lost money on every passenger it did not handle without incurring any additional expense.
While only US and DL know how much money they swapped over the past couple days, DL has a much larger route system than US and was probably able to protect a lot of passengers on its own network. ATL and CVG are not duplicate hubs but they are very similar so DL should have been able to protect a lot of passengers on itself if there were seats available. The problem for a lot of passengers on DL and US was that they biggest problems came for passengers that were going to destinations that are full throughout the holiday period for all airlines. US and DL could both protect passengers going TO Syracuse but it’s a lot harder protecting passengers going to Florida.
The real tale of the impact of these storms on US will be for travel starting in a couple weeks. Whether true or not, the media and the public that reads the papers believe US’ problems were all caused by disgruntled employees. That is a lot harder obstacle to overcome than Comair’s delay in replacing an 18 year old computer system.
As for subcontracting, US can subcontract all they want and they may get rid of some of the union problems they have had but the economics are no different whether work is contracted or whether it is done internally. Subcontracts will be no more successful getting people to work at the wages some people have posted here than has USAirways. Further, switching to contract employees right now will create yet another disruption to an already very fragile operation. And, in case you haven’t figured it out, if people see their jobs being given away, they have absolutely no incentive to preserve the company. It’s obvious from this past weekend that US is operating on such a thin margin that it doesn’t take much at all to send the operation into a tailspin. Subcontracting out most of the employees represented by a single union at a company will certainly result in US’ demise.
While only US and DL know how much money they swapped over the past couple days, DL has a much larger route system than US and was probably able to protect a lot of passengers on its own network. ATL and CVG are not duplicate hubs but they are very similar so DL should have been able to protect a lot of passengers on itself if there were seats available. The problem for a lot of passengers on DL and US was that they biggest problems came for passengers that were going to destinations that are full throughout the holiday period for all airlines. US and DL could both protect passengers going TO Syracuse but it’s a lot harder protecting passengers going to Florida.
The real tale of the impact of these storms on US will be for travel starting in a couple weeks. Whether true or not, the media and the public that reads the papers believe US’ problems were all caused by disgruntled employees. That is a lot harder obstacle to overcome than Comair’s delay in replacing an 18 year old computer system.
As for subcontracting, US can subcontract all they want and they may get rid of some of the union problems they have had but the economics are no different whether work is contracted or whether it is done internally. Subcontracts will be no more successful getting people to work at the wages some people have posted here than has USAirways. Further, switching to contract employees right now will create yet another disruption to an already very fragile operation. And, in case you haven’t figured it out, if people see their jobs being given away, they have absolutely no incentive to preserve the company. It’s obvious from this past weekend that US is operating on such a thin margin that it doesn’t take much at all to send the operation into a tailspin. Subcontracting out most of the employees represented by a single union at a company will certainly result in US’ demise.
Well said WorldTraveler. I do feel compassion for the stranded passengers and luggage, but I hope the company takes a very hard look at how easily the "operation can melt down". One of the most important elements to the passenger is to get their bag to their destination. The ramp agents are key in this part of the operation. Contracting out at slave wages is not the answer. For the life of me I can not believe the company expected something like this not to happen after trying to cut pay in half, trying to take away vacation, benefits, and pensions. It all comes down to a simple fact: Treat your employees well, let them know they are appreciated, pay them a decent wage and they will reward you with hard work and pride in their company.
And one more point...USAirways has whittled the staffing levels down SO low that there is no cushion in irregular operations day such as this. Don't cry and whine to the public that it is the employee's fault when you barely have enough employees to work a normal operations day. They have been cheap, cheap, cheap. Now it is clearly a perfect example of being "Penny wise and pound foolish".
And one more point...USAirways has whittled the staffing levels down SO low that there is no cushion in irregular operations day such as this. Don't cry and whine to the public that it is the employee's fault when you barely have enough employees to work a normal operations day. They have been cheap, cheap, cheap. Now it is clearly a perfect example of being "Penny wise and pound foolish".
"wishful (delusional) thinking" .... I guess I was delusional standing at the ticket counter for three days prossessing Delta passengers into every available seat we had. In my city we got all there business once there ATL flights were full. We went from 75% full to 100% full on every flight we sent out for three days. I hear it was the same across the system.
delldude
Veteran
your bottom line here is managements minimum staffing policy to save cash and in an unexpected weather event coupled with sickouts...it was overwhelmed and unprepared...you can blame unions all you want but staffing is the tip of the iceberg.PHL has always had staffing problems ,it has been well reported and management knows it.
That is a statement only partially true; Only a portion of employees will work toward that mantra. Those are the ones that should be provided incentive to excell. A considerable portion of employees will be unmotivated, unreliable, opportunistic no matter what is offered. Your work rules, contracts, etc. need to have disincentives for those seriously underperforming. Those are the ones calling off when not sick.
USA320Pilot said:
You just don't get it do you? Airlines do not make money on flights which don't operate. If they did, I would buy a 737 and park it in my back yard, never move it, and collect my fortune.
Yes, the company saved costs on fuel and landing fees. However, the company did not save on labor expenses, as I assume you guys still have a few paid sick days. Also, the leases and loans in order to own the aircraft still have to be paid for, as do all the airport leases and overhead.
Next, the flights on many days were full, so some passengers (i.e. revenue) was turned away. The company certainly reaccomed some folks to other airlines, which is usually at some percentage of the full fare. Furthermore, they company had to pay to deliver 10,000 bags to their owners. Long story short, cancelling flights is not a profitable solution.
Yes, to the extent that US Airways was able to accomodate Comair passengers, extra money was made there. However, the last time I checked, Comair/Delta baggage allowances are similar to US Airways. As such, they did not bring "extra" luggage. If US Airways cannot operate aircraft at 100% load factor in a manner where they can accomodate all passengers baggage, that has nothing to do with the fact they were reaccommodated from Comair vs. any other passenger.
USA320Pilot said:
1. This has nothing to do with the operational melt-down.
2. In your previous post, you stated that the cancellations helped reduce costs. However, if the company can be profitable at $44/bbl oil, and it is currently $42/bbl oil, then the flights that were presumably profitable. I am not sure how cancelling profitable flights helps your company.
I guess by A320s logic, since Comair cancelled hundreds (thousands) of flights over the several days, they must be rolling around in a windfall of cash this week since they saved so much money by not operating...
I have tried to refrain from commenting on anything that has happened this past week, but I do have a few comments to A320's points at the start of this topic.
1. The figure of 450 flight cancellations were strictly mainline flight cancellations. That figure did not include express cancellations. So the percentage that you figured were not accurate. Also, on Christmas Day we operate a reduced schedule. So when you have 179 cancellations on a day with a reduced schedule you lose a lot of options for protecting customers.
2. I agree we HAD an opportunity to wow Comair customers and win them over to the US product, but we totally #$%$'d it up with our own operational issues. How many of those customers do you think will come back after they were stuck in PHL for 2 days? How many will we ever see on our flight again when it took 5 days to return their baggage? We had a golden opportunity to win customers and it was an opportunity lost.
3. The point about the possible termination of employees that called off. I strongly agree that any employee that called off during that time period needs to be reviewed for possible discipline - and if warranted, they should be terminated. My question becomes, what took so long? Since September/October Sundays in PHL have been a nightmare. Every time the Eagles play, we have a system melt down. Why didn't the executive management of the company use those events to set a standard of intolerance? Why wasn't the gauntlet dropped earlier? Do you think the end result would have been any different? Coupled with the issue of sick calls, there is the issue of vacancies that could not be filled. If you have a schedule that requires 800 rampers and you only have 650, then you are just that much farther behind the 8 ball from the start. There is plenty of blame to go around so if they are going to discipline rank and file workers, then they need to continue to discipline all the way up the food chain for all employees (rank and file and executive).
4. To those that feel that the numbers of 80 ramp sick calls in PHL is somehow miniscule compared to the 300 F/A sick calls let's put this in prospective. We are talking about 300 F/A sick calls SYSTEM WIDE versus 80 ramp sick calls in PHL. I am sure if we got a system wide figure for IAM-FS the figure would exceed the 300. I know there were sick call issues in BOS, DCA, PHL and many other stations.
5. US is seeking employees to come to PHL on their off days to work for FREE. You have got to be kididng. How is this any form of incentive for anyone to come to PHL to help out? Why wasn't there any incentive offered for anyone to come to PHL to help out during the peak travel days. While I realize that there are challenges to security screening employees to come work on the ramp, it is not impossible if SOMEONE PLANNED AHEAD. Knowing that PHL staffing was already below "normal" and that there is always sick calls over the holidays, why didn't anyone have the brains enough to start seeking volunteers system wide after Thanksgiving and have them ready with SIDA access in time for the holidya rush? Once again, this shines poorly on the executives that should have been planning for any event. Did these executives honestly feel that the reward of 2 space positive tickets (that the employees have to pay taxes on) would be the incentive for employees to not call in sick? While I like the idea of incentives and rewards, this wasn't going to do it.
6. Your comments about effects on booking levels are all fluff. Since nearly all of the customers flying now are on leisure tickets, they are unable to change their travel to another customer. The true indication of the effect will be too look at future bookings (or lack off).
7. US has NOT been quick to respond to customer needs. The token 50.00 and 25.00 would never sooth the customer relations nightmare. Imagine you were one of these customers, going to Gramma's for the week and you were without your belongings for 4-5 days and all you got from US was 150.00. Consumer Affairs has their work cut out for themselves. How we respond to this "system meltdown" will be paramount to repairing the consumer confidence. Personally, I would implore Deborah Thompson and her group to start making phone contacts, sending letters (with vouchers) and making customer contact PRIOR to them having to contact us. Show that we recognize the HUGE inconvenience, apologize and kiss ass for forgiveness! Don't wait for the 1 out of 10 customers to contact us, we need to contact each and every one of them and say how sorry we are. If need be, solicite help from local station managers/employees to make these contacts for customers in their area. Don't ignore the problem and hope that customers will forget by the time they go to book their next trip. As we have all heard over and over, when a customer has a bad experience, they will tell 10-15 people of the tales of horror. When they have a good experience they will tell far less then that. We need to make ammends ASAP.
8. I would also like to applaude the AFA leaders for their reaction to this situation. I was very encouraged to read the reactions of Perry, Molly and Teddy. Recognizing that there is enough blame to go around and encouraging employees to do the right thing was a great response.
In closing, I am glad to see that there is going to be some accountability for the actions of the past week. This accountability needs to go right up the food chain and someone needs to lose their golden parachute and be shown the door. There is no way this is just an issue blamed on rank and file members. There is plenty of blame to go around. It is time to clean house top to bottom and get us on our feet again. We have a very long road ahead to make ammends to the customers and bad publicity we have suffered this week. CCY needs to map out the appropraite response and do the right thing.
To those that continue to come to work and do their best, Thank you. To those that chose to call in sick (when they weren't) may you get what is coming to you.
1. The figure of 450 flight cancellations were strictly mainline flight cancellations. That figure did not include express cancellations. So the percentage that you figured were not accurate. Also, on Christmas Day we operate a reduced schedule. So when you have 179 cancellations on a day with a reduced schedule you lose a lot of options for protecting customers.
2. I agree we HAD an opportunity to wow Comair customers and win them over to the US product, but we totally #$%$'d it up with our own operational issues. How many of those customers do you think will come back after they were stuck in PHL for 2 days? How many will we ever see on our flight again when it took 5 days to return their baggage? We had a golden opportunity to win customers and it was an opportunity lost.
3. The point about the possible termination of employees that called off. I strongly agree that any employee that called off during that time period needs to be reviewed for possible discipline - and if warranted, they should be terminated. My question becomes, what took so long? Since September/October Sundays in PHL have been a nightmare. Every time the Eagles play, we have a system melt down. Why didn't the executive management of the company use those events to set a standard of intolerance? Why wasn't the gauntlet dropped earlier? Do you think the end result would have been any different? Coupled with the issue of sick calls, there is the issue of vacancies that could not be filled. If you have a schedule that requires 800 rampers and you only have 650, then you are just that much farther behind the 8 ball from the start. There is plenty of blame to go around so if they are going to discipline rank and file workers, then they need to continue to discipline all the way up the food chain for all employees (rank and file and executive).
4. To those that feel that the numbers of 80 ramp sick calls in PHL is somehow miniscule compared to the 300 F/A sick calls let's put this in prospective. We are talking about 300 F/A sick calls SYSTEM WIDE versus 80 ramp sick calls in PHL. I am sure if we got a system wide figure for IAM-FS the figure would exceed the 300. I know there were sick call issues in BOS, DCA, PHL and many other stations.
5. US is seeking employees to come to PHL on their off days to work for FREE. You have got to be kididng. How is this any form of incentive for anyone to come to PHL to help out? Why wasn't there any incentive offered for anyone to come to PHL to help out during the peak travel days. While I realize that there are challenges to security screening employees to come work on the ramp, it is not impossible if SOMEONE PLANNED AHEAD. Knowing that PHL staffing was already below "normal" and that there is always sick calls over the holidays, why didn't anyone have the brains enough to start seeking volunteers system wide after Thanksgiving and have them ready with SIDA access in time for the holidya rush? Once again, this shines poorly on the executives that should have been planning for any event. Did these executives honestly feel that the reward of 2 space positive tickets (that the employees have to pay taxes on) would be the incentive for employees to not call in sick? While I like the idea of incentives and rewards, this wasn't going to do it.
6. Your comments about effects on booking levels are all fluff. Since nearly all of the customers flying now are on leisure tickets, they are unable to change their travel to another customer. The true indication of the effect will be too look at future bookings (or lack off).
7. US has NOT been quick to respond to customer needs. The token 50.00 and 25.00 would never sooth the customer relations nightmare. Imagine you were one of these customers, going to Gramma's for the week and you were without your belongings for 4-5 days and all you got from US was 150.00. Consumer Affairs has their work cut out for themselves. How we respond to this "system meltdown" will be paramount to repairing the consumer confidence. Personally, I would implore Deborah Thompson and her group to start making phone contacts, sending letters (with vouchers) and making customer contact PRIOR to them having to contact us. Show that we recognize the HUGE inconvenience, apologize and kiss ass for forgiveness! Don't wait for the 1 out of 10 customers to contact us, we need to contact each and every one of them and say how sorry we are. If need be, solicite help from local station managers/employees to make these contacts for customers in their area. Don't ignore the problem and hope that customers will forget by the time they go to book their next trip. As we have all heard over and over, when a customer has a bad experience, they will tell 10-15 people of the tales of horror. When they have a good experience they will tell far less then that. We need to make ammends ASAP.
8. I would also like to applaude the AFA leaders for their reaction to this situation. I was very encouraged to read the reactions of Perry, Molly and Teddy. Recognizing that there is enough blame to go around and encouraging employees to do the right thing was a great response.
In closing, I am glad to see that there is going to be some accountability for the actions of the past week. This accountability needs to go right up the food chain and someone needs to lose their golden parachute and be shown the door. There is no way this is just an issue blamed on rank and file members. There is plenty of blame to go around. It is time to clean house top to bottom and get us on our feet again. We have a very long road ahead to make ammends to the customers and bad publicity we have suffered this week. CCY needs to map out the appropraite response and do the right thing.
To those that continue to come to work and do their best, Thank you. To those that chose to call in sick (when they weren't) may you get what is coming to you.
MarkMyWords said:
Thanks MMW for "some" SOME common sense words, but I take exception to the last line above as well as other comments you made, but this one I will expand one.
What they have coming to them is "time off" called (sick days) and they are taking them while the taking is still possible, and for anyone to think they are selfish for doing what is "normal" they need some shock treatments.
You say in one breathe how management is nuts for some of what they expect of employees yet switch directions with this last statement....Take your flask and take a few hits and clear your head.
Some very good points MarkMyWords. In particular the part about proactively contacting customers and the point about needing to go up the food chain in accountability. I was on a UA flight from Paris to IAD that was postponed for a day from a mechanical problem. I didnt bother writing UA to complain. They put us in a nice hotel and fed us so I thought this stuff happens. A few weeks later I get a completely unsolicited letter of apology from UA and a $200 dollar voucher for future travel. The beauty from UAs standpoint is not only pleasantly surprising a long time customer but I spent the voucher on an upgradeable ticket JFK-NRT so they got several times the voucher amount in revenue on the part I paid. I have also gotten unsolicited letters of apology with no voucher from both AA and UA after delays of less time. Im getting old so memory is the first to go (well maybe second) but I dont remember ever getting one from US.
On a flight last week before this happened I was pretty annoyed at US and sent my first ever complaint letter to them. It was for nothing compared to the magnitude of what happened over the weekend. A couple days later I got an out of office response from someone at US explaining that they would be back January 3 and read my email. The inmates are really running the asylum.
On a flight last week before this happened I was pretty annoyed at US and sent my first ever complaint letter to them. It was for nothing compared to the magnitude of what happened over the weekend. A couple days later I got an out of office response from someone at US explaining that they would be back January 3 and read my email. The inmates are really running the asylum.
US1YFARE
Veteran
- Mar 31, 2004
- 3,932
- 54
MarkMyWords said:
AMEN. As I said, every DM member should be getting daily updates on what is being done to rectify the situation and put the customers at ease that the airline has a chance. This airline is infiltrated by arrogance from top to bottom. CUSTOMERS WON'T FORGET. Look at the problems UAL had/has getting back customers. US is not in a financial position to try to win back customers. I don't know how they can save the airline.
People are saying that they will take WN for the first time--what do they have to lose? US will always be remembered for stealing Christmas from so many people. And, the US PHL employees will never be applauded. I think that I would leave US off of my resume if I were a PHL employee--I can't imagine that any employer would touch you.
Sorry Deano, but anyone who knows me and my posts on here, I have no tolerance for anyone calling in sick when they aren't sick. Sick time is not something to be used when you don't feel like coming to work or if you feel you are entitled to the holiday off. Those that called off and were not sick deserve everything that is coming their way and much, much more.
That being said, there are plenty of people higher up in the food chain that need to be held accountable too.
That being said, there are plenty of people higher up in the food chain that need to be held accountable too.
You don't have to lecture me, I am "cavalier" one and the same and we went around on this issue before. There is absolutely ZERO incentive NOT to burn sick time other then self-righteous bragging rights.MarkMyWords said:
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