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Pilot Labor Thread for the week 4/19-4/26

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by you're apparent definition everyone was 'united' under alpa as well, but i'm sure you would argue that not to be the case, same dance, different song with a more defined 500 some-odd person gap....

i don't see unity, i see possible anarchy

curious to see the slew of lawsuits sure to commence from all this
We were not united under ALPA. This is no dance. Go back and reread all the posts from say around July of last year. In each thread there is the same dance you refer to. Why bother playing it out again for your benefit?

Well, I guess we can disagree on total unity. But the context of my post was about east unity.

The lawsuits are sure to come as a natural progression when 2 sides disagree vehemently. Especially in todays society. Expected and planned for. But thanks for your interest.
 
This is high comedy from the USAPIANS.....tell us more!
More like a tragedy. But out of the ashes comes a new beginning. If you want to learn more, do what I said to another poster. Go back and reread many of the weekly threads and you can learn what has been thought of by posters on many economic issues. No need to rerun old news.
 
FYI:

This is the USAPA phone update for Monday, April 21st, 2008

As the dust settles following USAPA's historic win on the 17th, we wanted to give you a quick overview of events. We realize you've all been anxious for news and we apologize for the delay in this update.

On the 17th, many of the Board of Pilot Reps, along with USAPA Officers and a few volunteers gathered in CLT awaiting the news of the election. President Stephen Bradford was in attendance at the NMB when the tally was publicized, along with representatives of both ALPA and the Company. President Bradford called the results in to the Board, 2723 votes for USAPA, and 2254 for ALPA, with a voting turnout of almost 95% of eligible voters. Following the announcement, President Bradford immediately caught a flight down to join the meeting.

Immediately following the announcement, the requisite Press Releases were sent and we went back to work ensuring that Day One structure was in place for the pilots. The most important item was the Critical Incident line which had been up-and-running but was tested one more time.

Plans and agenda items were finalized for a BPR meeting the following day, which took us into the evening. The group broke for dinner, and to take a break before business resumed the following morning.

Details of the meeting on the 18th will follow, but as an overview Steve Bradford led a discussion of Membership vs. Representation, followed by Discussion of Waypoints Electronics bid for services, Consideration of Parkview Office lease and furnishings. It was agreed to accept the bids (with a modification to the Waypoint bid for services deemed as unnecessary at this time).

The Board then discussed the distribution of USAPA Safety Cards, with Accident Contact Numbers. The cards were to have been distributed on the 18th, but were delayed due to a delivery issue. We anticipate having them in 1-2 days; they are also downloadable on the USAPA website.

Safety Committee Co-Chairman Tom Kubik gives a brief overview of current ASAP issues and the Safety Hot line. As expected, USAPA is being given the chance to simply extend the current ASAP agreement by a resolution and signature. The Board is reviewing the current MOA for submission, in the meantime all pilots are reminded that the BEST, undiluted protections they can obtain after an incident is by filling out a NASA report.

Membership Services Chairman Steve Szpyrka then took the floor, to lead a Discussion of Committee Staffing. Steve also noted that our contract Hot Line is up and running, that number is 877-678-7272 x723

It was decided by the Board that Aeromedical Services will be provided by USAPA though Monday 3 Jun 08. The Board fully understands we are in a transitional period and would not want any pilot to go without coverage during said period. AFTER JUNE 3, 2008 any pilot who is not a member of USAPA will be required to arrange direct billing for these services. Inclusion simply requires that the pilot be dues current and submit a USAPA Membership Form prior to the close of business Monday June 3, 2008.

The Board then discussed the removal of all election related materials from property, along with the creation of a new lanyard.

VP Mike Cleary gave a briefing on Pilot discipline issues, followed by the President reminding the Board of the importance of Dues Checkoff and Membership forms.

Over the weekend, we cleaned up the web site, removing virtually all pre-election and/or now irrelevant material. The plan for the site will be involve two stages. First, a professional complete redesign will be started. While that is being accomplished, the current site will be updated with the basic information necessary to serve the pilot group and keep them informed. The "Members Only" section will first be passworded primarily to keep the general public out; when we move to the new site usernames and passwords will be mailed out to all members.

Regarding insurance transfer, we have been advised by our insurance providers that they will have dedicated portals available tonight for the purpose of transferring your ALPA insurance over to USAPA. The overview of the process is essentially that the pilot will go to the web site, download the required forms, fill them out, include proof of ALPA insurance (invoice, certificate of insurance, etc), and fax or mail. Recall that coverage is guaranteed.

The Staffing page on the web site has been updated with contact information for all Officer, Reps and many committee members. We encourage you to contact your Reps, say hello and let them know your thoughts.

We are looking for 3 West volunteers for the following positions - Grievance Liaison, Safety Liaison, and Contract Support Liaison. Applicants should have current or recent experience in the relevant areas. Please check the USAPA members only section on the web site for contact information for each position.

In closing, our office will be up-and-running with staff as-of tomorrow the 22nd; thank you for your patience as we work many hours behind the scenes to put the final pieces in place.
 
We were not united under ALPA. This is no dance. Go back and reread all the posts from say around July of last year. In each thread there is the same dance you refer to. Why bother playing it out again for your benefit?

Well, I guess we can disagree on total unity. But the context of my post was about east unity.

The lawsuits are sure to come as a natural progression when 2 sides disagree vehemently. Especially in todays society. Expected and planned for. But thanks for your interest.
We are not united under USAPA either. The vote only showed that groups were pretty closely split. That doesn't show unity, it shows division. There is a long road ahead. We probably won't see Airways survive long enough to iron it out. But in the interest of unity within the so called "new union", when a federal judge rules in favor of Nic, will you still call for unity or another "do over."
 
We are not united under USAPA either. The vote only showed that groups were pretty closely split. That doesn't show unity, it shows division. There is a long road ahead. We probably won't see Airways survive long enough to iron it out. But in the interest of unity within the so called "new union", when a federal judge rules in favor of Nic, will you still call for unity or another "do over."


A federal judge will rule and may rule in favor of the MDA pilots over the Nic Award long before any other suit may progress that far.
 
My experience has been that once you enter a court of law, despite what attorneys may try to make you believe, you NEVER know how a judge will rule. So the question is... if your plan A, sue USAPA should they attempt to use DOH as the basis for the seniority integration, even though it is mitigated by fences, conditions and restrictions to protect everyone's flying, and to further share any growth flying between the FORMER east and west pilots, ( and of course, deal with the very possible downside leading to furloughs... who gets it and how is it distributed between the groups) what will be your plan B should a judge rule against you?... Appeal?... maybe it will be permitted, maybe not. So if you think into the future, and what that may hold, it seems that if a judge rules against you, you'll only have two options... one still refuse to become a part of this process and continue to cut your nose off to spite your face or "get with the program" and get your butts involved to help in the formation of a union which will ultimately benefit you more than anything ALPA could have ever provided. A union that will give each of you the power to have a say in any meaningful decisions. As it has been pointed out countless times since the vote came down... there was not a "landslide" of votes in favor of USAPA. Yes they prevailed in this election, but it was close enough that the West pilots are only hurting themselves unless they get involved in a meaningful way to help forge our path into the future. We truly are in agreement on so many important issues. The one issue that has totally fractured our two groups is the seniority integration... There is a way to work this out... but it will only be possible if both sides stop the rhetoric and BS and get down to the real work that lies before us.
 
My experience has been that once you enter a court of law, despite what attorneys may try to make you believe, you NEVER know how a judge will rule. So the question is... if your plan A, sue USAPA should they attempt to use DOH as the basis for the seniority integration, even though it is mitigated by fences, conditions and restrictions to protect everyone's flying, and to further share any growth flying between the FORMER east and west pilots, ( and of course, deal with the very possible downside leading to furloughs... who gets it and how is it distributed between the groups) what will be your plan B should a judge rule against you?... Appeal?... maybe it will be permitted, maybe not. So if you think into the future, and what that may hold, it seems that if a judge rules against you, you'll only have two options... one still refuse to become a part of this process and continue to cut your nose off to spite your face or "get with the program" and get your butts involved to help in the formation of a union which will ultimately benefit you more than anything ALPA could have ever provided. A union that will give each of you the power to have a say in any meaningful decisions. As it has been pointed out countless times since the vote came down... there was not a "landslide" of votes in favor of USAPA. Yes they prevailed in this election, but it was close enough that the West pilots are only hurting themselves unless they get involved in a meaningful way to help forge our path into the future. We truly are in agreement on so many important issues. The one issue that has totally fractured our two groups is the seniority integration... There is a way to work this out... but it will only be possible if both sides stop the rhetoric and BS and get down to the real work that lays before us.
So now only the west is hurting themselves? USAPA divided the pilot group. There is no UNITY. As it stands right now, the West can make a decision only to be denied by your majority. As you said, there is a way to work this out without the rhetoric and BS. Why is it you can only see that now that the tides have changed. You had that opportunity to do that under ALPA, but chose not to. Both sides couldn't come to happy medium while engaged in negotiations. Whose fault is that? You think now it will be different.
 
So now only the west is hurting themselves? USAPA divided the pilot group. There is no UNITY. As it stands right now, the West can make a decision only to be denied by your majority. As you said, there is a way to work this out without the rhetoric and BS. Why is it you can only see that now that the tides have changed. You had that opportunity to do that under ALPA, but chose not to. Both sides couldn't come to happy medium while engaged in negotiations. Whose fault is that? You think now it will be different.

"As it stands right now, the West can make a decision only to be denied by your majority." That's nothing new, regardless of what the west perception's apparently been all along. It was commonly stated, (however utterly disbelieved out west), that NO contract would ever be voted in containing Nic...apparently; nobobdy out there listened.... Wouldn't you consider the present a good time to start working things out as an actual group?. A standard early-Nic west mantra was that the east pilots were a bunch of "sheep".."morons"/etc for not being far more active in things Alpa, and keeping far too silent as a group. We were then held responsible by the west for virtually EVERYTHING Alpa ever did it seems, and constantly berated for essentially sitting on our thumbs while Alpa ran amok. OK..Fair enough: What's to lose by your making some efforts at participation?
 
So now only the west is hurting themselves? USAPA divided the pilot group. There is no UNITY. As it stands right now, the West can make a decision only to be denied by your majority. As you said, there is a way to work this out without the rhetoric and BS. Why is it you can only see that now that the tides have changed. You had that opportunity to do that under ALPA, but chose not to. Both sides couldn't come to happy medium while engaged in negotiations. Whose fault is that? You think now it will be different.
I am obviously no expert but it seems to me that it was Nicholau that divided the east and west pilot group, not ALPA nor USAPA. The division was 2/3 of the east vs 1/3 of the west, give or take. One or the other is going to be p.o.ed, no question. With ALPA out, 1/3 is p.o.ed. With ALPA in, 2/3 are p.o.ed. So, what is it to be?

Yes, ALPA had a chance to try to fix things but missed opportunities scuttled that and now they have lost credibility for a long time. Perhaps ALPA is too fossilized to move fast enough to have fixed the situation. Now they will have a chance to fix themselves. I can understand Prater's dilemma(s) and to blame ALPA or USAPA for a divided pilot group shows a complete lack of understanding about what happened, at best.

By providing a complete windfall to 1/3 of the pilot group, Nicholau ensured that the company could whipsaw the groups for years. Under USAPA, the west group lost nothing that they had before and still can attain all the advancement they expected when hired, if they are willing to roll up their sleeves and work, if not for the overall pilot group, at least for themselves.

It is up to the west. Work or fall by the wayside. Their choice.
 
"As it stands right now, the West can make a decision only to be denied by your majority." That's nothing new, regardless of what the west perception's apparently been all along. It was commonly stated, (however utterly disbelieved out west), that NO contract would ever be voted in containing Nic...apparently; nobobdy out there listened.... Wouldn't you consider the present a good time to start working things out as an actual group?. A standard early-Nic west mantra was that the east pilots were a bunch of "sheep".."morons"/etc for not being far more active in things Alpa, and keeping far too silent as a group. We were then held responsible by the west for virtually EVERYTHING Alpa ever did it seems, and constantly berated for essentially sitting on our thumbs while Alpa ran amok. OK..Fair enough: What's to lose by your making some efforts at participation?
While no contract would ever be voted in using Nic, nothing will happen with DOH, we can't work with that. So where do WE go from here. You won't budge nor will we. How about a third party arbitration to iron this out. When we don't like the final and binding result we can yell do over again. See that's a major sticking point. We MUTUALLY agreed to it and you reneged. What are the odds that you won't bend us over a car hood again?
 
What are the odds that you won't bend us over a car hood again?

I believe firmly that Nic's an abomination on every possible level.....PERIOD. Do what you feel the need to...but; kindly stop the evident "victim"/pity-party at some point. All have seen what the actual majority of our collective group thinks. If there's a desire to wait-out the legal process prior to any participation in the new union...well...so be it.
 
While no contract would ever be voted in using Nic, nothing will happen with DOH, we can't work with that. So where do WE go from here. You won't budge nor will we. How about a third party arbitration to iron this out. When we don't like the final and binding result we can yell do over again. See that's a major sticking point. We MUTUALLY agreed to it and you reneged. What are the odds that you won't bend us over a car hood again?

shake shake shake...


yoursign.webp
 
I believe firmly that Nic's an abomination on every possible level.....PERIOD. Do what you feel the need to...but; kindly stop the evident "victim"/pity-party at some point. All have seen what the actual majority of our collective group thinks. If there's a desire to wait-out the legal process prior to any participation in the new union...well...so be it.
You think that vote split was a collective majority? What happens when things don't work out and people jump ship?
 
You think that vote split was a collective majority?

The NMB apparently thought so.

"What happens when things don't work out and people jump ship?" In favor of gleefully giving their seniority away to the west?...Ah yes; that should happen any day now....sheesh.
 
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