Pilot seniority arbitration award is out

[flynomore]

I know better than to argue what's "fair". Afterall, that why there's an arbitration process. You can cry unfairness all day but your opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's. Only Nicolau's is what's binding.

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Just so I don't get accused of 'outing' a poster, you admitted above to your AA/TWA status. We know each other, but that is not important now.

If the letter came from Dallas today would you return to AAL? Has that opinion changed since Thursday? Your answer would be very telling considering your position at AWA was likely a 'best at the time' available.

A union is only as strong as those willing to go the distance. How strong do you think our union is now? How would you make it stronger?

 

[Phoenix]

I know better than to argue what's "fair". Afterall, that why there's an arbitration process. You can cry unfairness all day but your opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's. Only Nicolau's is what's binding.

Frankly the FFOCUS group should stay out of it, except to start flying on a different carrier.

The agitration is finished and there will be consequences.

Nicolau didn't consumate a merger, and his ruling doens't have any "binding" effect on following FARs, contracts, Operating Manuals or any other regulations. The latter are the binding documents that matter now.

IF a joint contract becomes effective, then Nicolau's document will be added to the list of "binding" documents.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

How about the FFs who post here? They have no dog in the fight, but they have taken the time to look into the matter and have concluded that the "award" was unfair.

One doesn't have to read the entire 88 page award to see the unfairness of the result. One only has to look at the result and know what was brought to the table to see the reality.

May be they did,but what does that have to do with the price of soybeans on the open market? They will still fly with USAir if it makes sense to do so just to burn off all the frequnt flier miles they have accumulated over the years and probably won't care one way or the other if the F/O is some 58 year old gray beard working with some 22 year old Captain who still needs to apply Clearsil to his churubic little face in the morning. Just as long as he gets to where he has to go without having to pay an arm and a leg to get there.At least that's this FF's plan.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Just so I don't get accused of 'outing' a poster, you admitted above to your AA/TWA status. We know each other, but that is not important now.

I've never hidden my past status, indeed, my handle flaunts it. But no fair that you know who I am and I don't know who you are!

If the letter came from Dallas today would you return to AAL?

No, I would defer.

Has that opinion changed since Thursday?

No.

Your answer would be very telling considering your position at AWA was likely a 'best at the time' available.

Since you know who I am perhaps you've read what I've posted on C&R, the PDP forum, TWAPilot.com and on Flightinfo.com as TWA Dude": I've repeadedly said I would initially defer recall and I don't know whether I'll go back at all. Right now the only reason I'd want to would be to be based in ORD and have a drivable commute. But ultimately I have several years to decide and I'm in no hurry.

A union is only as strong as those willing to go the distance. How strong do you think our union is now?

Not sure which context you're refering to. Right now management has the edge over all pilot unions due to anti-labor sentiment in the Bush administration, the apathy of the general public, and the weakness of the airline industry.

How would you make it stronger?

Strong leadership usually does the trick and is something few MECs can claim. I don't consider myself union leadership material so I honestly don't know what I can do beyond what I already do: vote on every ballot and contact my reps when I feel the need.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Many thanks to the AWA merger committee. All four are intelligent and honorable men. Bravo Zulu guys for a job well done.

 

[ussnark]

The PTB always enjoy a standout. The rest will behave exactly as history suggests they will.

I don't know about that.

US was "first" to give up their retirement and the rest of ALPA carriers followed suit to some degree or other.

Now, two merging ALPA carriers just had a ruling that says "DOH seniority" means little or nothing, in the face of beginning industry consolidation. I can see NWA buying Spirit and an arbitrator rules similarly. AirTran and UAL (and UAL gets their just desserts for changing the policy from DOH mainly to encompass "other factors"). The little guys get enhanced seniority.

IMHO, ALPA Natl is facing a giant problem. They ignored it the first time with retirement, to their chagrin. They ignore this only at their peril. Captain Prater may survive this but I see a lot of the dead wood going away.

On the Eastern deal. I did not work for them but I did use them quite a bit and it is my perception that Bryan took the fall for something that was really not his fault. IMO, Eastern went away because the employees did not care anymore. Until the end when it is too late, the unions seemed to acquiese to the point where at the end, there was nothing left to give. I see US going the same way. US should have made a stand much earlier. Now, there may be nothing to bargain about.

<tinfoil hat>Am I the only person here to recognize a possiblity of arbitrator/company collaboration? Follow the money and try to understand who benefits. Nothing definitive but I am still weighing the factors and the fishy smell gets stronger the more I delve into it.</tinfoil hat>

 

[ClueByFour]

From what I just heard , ALPA National is going to take a hard look at this list, and they have the power to reject it. It seems that east f/o's are calling en masse to National saying they are going to quit ALPA.

In which case US-West ALPA's pending lawsuit will bankrupt ALPA.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Am I missing something here?

Why are the West pilots and/or company being blamed for this decision? Where is the blame really?

Didn't membership on both sides know ahead of time that if they couldn't reach an agreement on merging the lists that ALPA's Merger Policy would result in a binding award by arbitration?

 

[ClueByFour]

If it does get some public attention, Joe Public will be outraged in front of the TV cameras, simply because the disgraceful conduct of the arbitrator is egregious. Joe Public will, in fact, get it that having such an upsidedown seniority is absurd and wrong.

Since 85% of Joe Public's work in nonunion, at will jobs where their payment is judged by worth and contribution (and not seniority), they won't care. Trust me.

Every non-190 FO at East is making a minimum of what, $85k? Do you really believe that a large percentage of the general public is going to have sympathy for someone in a job making like twice+ the median income in the US?

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

From what I just heard , ALPA National is going to take a hard look at this list, and they have the power to reject it.

Can you provide link or cite the official source that shows ALPA National has that power?

 

[luvn737s]

I guess hindsight is 20-20, but alot of heartache could have been avoided if they had come to a reasonable solution without the need for an arbitrator. As it stands the top east guys are temporarily protected, the middle stays pretty much where they were percentile wise in their respective sides, and the people waiting to be called back are still waiting to be called back. The real outrage should be reserved for when the first person gets denied their upgrade for an unreasonable amount of time, and I don't think that this decision will make a significant difference in that.

Plus, the toxic relationship that seems to have developed over this will make anyone contemplating following their rainbow either direction to weigh the cost. There may be a pot at the end, but it might not be filled with gold.

 

[Wannabe Airways]

Can you provide link or cite the official source that shows ALPA National has that power?

Is this legit, I hope so for the sake of the East guys. Its a really lopsided deal.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Is this legit, I hope so for the sake of the East guys. Its a really lopsided deal.

Its not doh, so its lopsided? Well, apparantly, the three neutral parties who decided this don't share that opinion. Even the easts hand picked neutral, a CAL guy no less, with the exception of 300 or so recalls, thinks Nicolau did good work.

I don't know what else to say. I do know that if it would have been doh, the east would be telling the west to just live with, thats the way things go. Incidently, I do think that the east fully expected their proposal in its entirety. Also incidently, I was mentaly preparing myself for it to go that way myself, and had it gone that way, I would have lived with it.

If by some way the east guys get this thrown out, I'll live with that. Right now this seems to have a life of its own, we'll just have to see where it goes.

 

[tahitigirl]

USeast f/a here. Please tell me what I can do to help change this? What number can I call or whom can I write? No offense to anyone in the west, but no one should have to retire out of the right seat.

 

[etops1]

USeast f/a here. Please tell me what I can do to help change this? What number can I call or whom can I write? No offense to anyone in the west, but no one should have to retire out of the right seat.

ditto. just want to let our east pilots know that we stand behind you on all this. this is utterly cmplete bullshit. know who is to blame for this? is it alpa or management? i am going to assume it's alpa since it'a an apla internal issue and from what i understand managemnt could not get involved with .