Pilot seniority arbitration award is out

[ussnark]

That's right, all you conspiricy buffs, the Company conspired with the National Mediation Board and the obviously corrupt Nicolau to foment labor unrest. Afterall, there can't possibly be any other reason for him to come to the conclusions he did. Write your elected officials now! Oops, they're probably in on the conspiricy as well.

George Nicolau
240 E 39th St., Suite 34G
New York, NY 10016
Phone: (212) 777-5032
Fax: (212) 777-7397
email: gnicolau@aol.com

George Nicolau, an Impartial Member of the Board since 1987, is the Past President of the National Academy of Arbitrators and the Society of Professionals in Dispute Resolution, now the Association for Conflict Resolution, and serves as the Vice Chair of the United States Branch of the International Society for Labor and Social Security Law. Perhaps best know for his nine-year service as Impartial Chairman in Major League Baseball, he served a similar role in basketball, hockey and soccer, and now serves as System Board Chair for a number of airlines and their pilots, flight attendants and ground personnel, and is the Industry Chair for the League of Voluntary Hospitals and 1199, SEIU.

more: http://www.nmb.gov/arbitrator-resumes/nico...orge-gn_res.pdf

Use spell-check. You might seem less moronic that way.

 

[nyprincess]

Now a fair solution has been reached with the pilots. It rejected one sides unreasonable demands and found a middle ground. However, those who sought a soft target of retribution have been disappointed, but most reasonable people, I think, see past all the smoke and realize that the arbitrator did the right thing. Shafting the AWA pilot group might have felt good in the short term, but like the AFA, they would have had to live with themselves for a very long time.

What a crock of BULL :censored: . Please do us all a favor and get your head out of your A$$. Fair....far from fair...and the AFA don't need to worry about living with themselves for a long time. They knew it was the only fair thing to do. I know it would have never happened but I would have loved it to go DOH for the pilots. For the only fact that AWA really REALLY thinks that the outcome was actually fair!!! But the east pilots are smart....I'm sure they have a plan. So the westies shouldn't start they celebration so soon.

 

[aquagreen73s]

They were both at the bottom of their respective airlines list of flying pilots and the U guy is now slightly above that. Why he was at the bottom of his airlines list is another matter.

When the last contract was ratified at HP, the then VP of Flight Ops threatened immediate employment termination to anyone involved in a public confrontation over it. I would bet that policy remains in effect.

I don't understand why the East can't comprehend something as basic as how the ALPA policy values seniority. It's not a fixed standard such as DOH. Rather, it's value is determined by three independendent and neutral parties who use various factors to weigh the seniority value of each airline. In the ALPA policy, "seniority" really boils down to "career expectations." This process provided a fair opportunity to be heard by both parties. East helped pick Nicolau. They picked their own neutral. And both voted against them. Unless they allege some sort of fraud in the process, they're stuck with the award. AAA had sixteen years to get ALPA to change back to a DOH system. They either didn't or they obviously failed.

There is also nothing wrong with the final list either. Because I was finishing high school when the East pilots I'm sandwiched between were starting IOE only reflects the relative values of our DOHs. Think of it like the currency exchange: a Mexican Peso is not of equivalent value as the US Dollar. You can't go into a Starbucks demanding a coffee for two Mexican Peso just because two American dollars buys a Starbucks. In other words, if a 1987 DOH only buys a junior 737 reserve, and the same job West goes for a 2004 DOH, then those are the equivalent value. Game, set, match.

 

[ussnark]

When the last contract was ratified at HP, the then VP of Flight Ops threatened immediate employment termination to anyone involved in a public confrontation over it. I would bet that policy remains in effect.

Bring it on.

Hey, wasn't he the guy that lined his 757 on the edge runway lights for takeoff at BWI one night? Yeah, I remember him. Seems his blindness isn't restricted to just his vision.

 

[diamondcutter]

USeast f/a here. Please tell me what I can do to help change this? What number can I call or whom can I write? No offense to anyone in the west, but no one should have to retire out of the right seat.

I could not agree more....please tell us how AFA can Help. I would be more then happy to help out in any way I can. Now is the time to all stand together!!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

I could not agree more....please tell us how AFA can Help. I would be more then happy to help out in any way I can. Now is the time to all stand together!!!!!

Nothing. They had their day in court. They had a fair oppotunity to be heard. A unanimous panel voted against them. It's over. Move on.

 

[diamondcutter]

Don't you really mean no eastie should retire out of the right seat? How did the westie contribute to the furloughs that put the eastie in the right seat, and why should he have to pay for it?

The east F/A's saw no compassion for their fellow F/A's on the west by seeking a fair compromise, so it's no surprise they can't recognize a fair solution when they see it.

Because it was DOH end of story!

 

[exB717Flyer]

You misunderstood. I don't think the Arbitrator was influenced.

Sorry I misunderstood you. There are others who do feel Management somehow had a hand in it.

If you continue or begin to engage in open warfare with each other the company WINS, not any of you.

True. So far only one side seems to have declared war.

 

[Bear96]

I believe the East's position was also trying to preserve OUR attrition. The arbitrator not only did not look at our age on the East (Like he has in past decisions), he did not care that the majority of the attrition would be in the East. It is an all around corrupt decision and I bet Glass & Otis had a hand in this somehow.

Does the ALPA merer policy say age and attrition are supposed to be considerations?

 

[Crzipilot]

I can agree with the arguement, that the bottom US guy is just above the bottom AWA guy, and "relative seniority" is equal at that point. What I don't agree with is that the career progression, 10 years from now, that US guy was expecting to be higher up the relative position on his list, than the AWA was expecting on his list. Of course you have to throw out all the variables on each side prior to the merger happening. I.E. the arguement that East was doomed, and AWA was hiring/ordering airplanes. But alas, the East has been there many times in the past and survived, and Douggie stated they were looking at a 15% reduction if it wasn't for the merger. So taking the snapshot, and looking forward, The East guys projection for relative seniority is no where near what would have been. Meanwhile, the West side I believe has increased.

Does the ALPA merer policy say age and attrition are supposed to be considerations?

I believe attrition is tied into career progression, so uhmmm...ya it does.

 

[flynomore]

Sorry I misunderstood you. There are others who do feel Management somehow had a hand in it.True. So far only one side seems to have declared war.

====================================================

Have you been reading what your aquaman rep has been writing? Sounds pretty incendiary to me.

How many of that 854 were AWA jobs anyway?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Clue-

You quoted me:

If it does get some public attention, Joe Public will be outraged in front of the TV cameras, simply because the disgraceful conduct of the arbitrator is egregious. Joe Public will, in fact, get it that having such an upsidedown seniority is absurd and wrong.

You answered:

Since 85% of Joe Public's work in nonunion, at will jobs where their payment is judged by worth and contribution (and not seniority), they won't care. Trust me.

Had you not taken my statement out of context, you would have seen that I was making the same point. What I said was:

If it does get some public attention, Joe Public will be outraged in front of the TV cameras, simply because the disgraceful conduct of the arbitrator is egregious. Joe Public will, in fact, get it that having such an upsidedown seniority is absurd and wrong.

And then they will proceed to board their USAirways flight to their vacation and never give it another thought.

 

[TechBoy]

Because it was DOH end of story!

If that answer for FAs is "it was DOH end of story" then why isn't the right answer for pilots "it was arbitration end of story?"

As an outsider, I must say that logic went out the window very quickly in this debate.

 

[allstrike]

If that answer for FAs is "it was DOH end of story" then why isn't the right answer for pilots "it was arbitration end of story?"

As an outsider, I must say that logic went out the window very quickly in this debate.

Well so did the saying (fair and impartial) when applied to the arbitrator in our pilots eyes.If you think you smell a rat,alls fare in your inquest I would say.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If that answer for FAs is "it was DOH end of story" then why isn't the right answer for pilots "it was arbitration end of story?"

As an outsider, I must say that logic went out the window very quickly in this debate.

Simple.

First -

Two different unions: The Associations of Flight Attendants (AFA) and The Airline Pilots Association (ALPA).

These two unions are in no way associated with each other. They are completely independent entities.


Second -

Each independent union has its own merger policy.

The AFA policy is that seniority lists between two carriers represented by AFA be merger by Date of Hire (DOH.) End of story.

The ALPA policy has five criteria that should be met to the maximum extent possible. NONE of these criteria is DOH.

The AFA integration had NOTHING TO DO with the ALPA integration any more than the price of a gallon of gas in Manhattan affects the price of a loaf of bread in Tahiti.