pilots and flight attendants BOTH sign a merger agreement!

[700UW]

I dont have to answer them as it is off topic.

Once again you have highjacked another thread.

You wont ever get it.

And I have never claimed to be an expert, unlike yourself.

All I have to say is -579 and I dont have an alter ego, Spector do boost my ratings, can you say the same?

Which is a violation of the TOS.

 

[robbedagain]

CAN YOU ANSWER THIS.... LETS SAY AA EMERGES FROM CH11 CONTINUE TO LOSE MONEY OVER MONEY... MUCH LIKE US DID IN THE MID 2000S WHEN THEY EMERGED FROM CH11 TWICE IT WONT BE LONG BEFORE AA WOULD BE RIGHT BACK IN THE 2ND TIME AROUND WITH MORE CUTS IN LABOR LABOR LABOR ALL THE WHILE MGMT TAKES TAKES TAKES... THEIR POR IS BASICALLY SIMILAR TO USAIRWAYS FIRST POR WHICH ULTIMATELY LED THEM TO THE 2ND CH11 AND WITH DL BUYING A LARGE STAKE IN VS COUPLED WITH AA BEING A DISTANCE 3RD WILL NOT HELP EITHER

 

[700UW]

VS is not making money, why do you think SQ off loaded their stake?

 

[WorldTraveler]

everyone seems to get it except the labor leaders who think they will benefit from this merger.

Touche Robbed, even if 700 wasn't to call it off topic and bring in every other diversion to avoid answering the questions which everyone else can see.

I thought this topic was about AA/US but since you brought up VS, you do realize that the value of what DL paid for VS exceeds the slot value which VS holds, don't you?

VS likely will improve just by cooperating w/ other airlines including DL, something it has never done before.

 

[robbedagain]

WT i see what 700 is saying regarding sq getting rid of vs for yrs they lost money doesnt sound like they will fare much better under dl but only time will tell this thread is titled pilots and f/as both approved agreements in the event of a merger i believe that its only a matter of time before aa and us merge. just my simple opin if aa comes out of ch11 they will be a lot like us was and will end up right back in there as losses mount and mgmt will simply say they need more cuts... guess where... labor we went thru it 2 times
i know you dont care for what 700 says but i personelly see what he says and he is far more detailed with union and company related things and i can understand what he says

 

[FWAAA]

If AA and US combine, and Parker hands out raises to the AA employees (he promised the AA unions fewer cuts than Horton achieved, which equals more money), and the US employees get huge raises (necessary to bring the pilots and FAs up to AA's payscales), then doesn't that situation make it more likely that the combined AA-US heads back to Ch 11?

 

[Bob Owens]

If AA and US combine, and Parker hands out raises to the AA employees (he promised the AA unions fewer cuts than Horton achieved, which equals more money), and the US employees get huge raises (necessary to bring the pilots and FAs up to AA's payscales), then doesn't that situation make it more likely that the combined AA-US heads back to Ch 11?

Well if US is profitable now and AA makes the $3 billion a year in profits that they told the judge then their is plenty to go around, especially when all the "synergies" kick in!!. AA mechanics headcount is already down to around 8500, thats down by around 1500 since they filed a little over a year ago. Around 1/3 left without the buyout and people are still quitting. Thats $150 million less in labor costs a year right? keep in mind that the biggest concern I'm hearing right now is guys who put in for the Early out are hearing that they will not be released until September, the company cant afford to let them go. They cant replace them and there isnt anyplace to send the work. A lot of guys chose the street in AFW vs bumping the system. From the guys who I did speak to that are coming they arent looking to relocate, instead they will commute, meaning that the shortage in the high cost areas wont be temporary. With no pension, and the least amount of PTO in the industry even high timers who cant make days have no reason to stay at AA. They can jump over to competitors and have just as much PTO, if not more, than what they get at AA along with a pay raise, some are already doing that.

That said, I'm in agreement with you, another C-11 is likely, but not because they are paying their workers too much, more like they would rather have 100,000 miserable underpaid workers than a leaner more motivated force that by the time the passenger plants their but in the seat saves money despite fair wages.

 

[jersey777]

If AA and US combine, and Parker hands out raises to the AA employees (he promised the AA unions fewer cuts than Horton achieved, which equals more money), and the US employees get huge raises (necessary to bring the pilots and FAs up to AA's payscales), then doesn't that situation make it more likely that the combined AA-US heads back to Ch 11?

Even with all the "raises"...which in our case is still a pay cut from what we were receiving pre-bankruptcy, the new AA/USAir pay/benefits will be about equal to what both United and Delta employees have. I, as well as just about every airline analyst, think we have a much better prospect of competing against these two with a combined entity. Your doom and gloom scenario seems to be the new mantra for those that just don't want to be believe that this merger now seems inevitable.

 

[FA Mikey]

Except those airlines added a part of there system needed to grow world wide. usair adds a nothing but a domestic operation. DAL and UAL added South America and a Pacific operation. usair doesn't offer either. They operate secondary hubs, and connect just more transferring domestic passengers. AA needs to grow international and to build on that adding more flights to their hubs at MIA, LAX, JFK, DFW and ORD. usair offers a single flight to GIG and no interest in the pacific.

 

[WorldTraveler]

robbed,
I have nothing against 700 or anyone else... other than the fact that he wants to shut down the discussion when it doesn't present the side of the story he wants us to see.


thank you, FWAAA.
I'm glad you and others recognize that AA/US cannot bring the combined workforce up to industry average using the revenue synergies that are being tossed around - which must include bringing AA up to industry average profits - which is still at least $1.5B/yr beyond what the labor and fleet cuts will provide.

Just for the record, can you provide the number again of how much US' labor costs would go up if they had to pay AA's labor rates? Granted that number is a little dusty but even if it is cut in half, it shows how much it will cost to bring US employees up to industry average wages - and well beyond what most people will acknowledge.

Yes, Bob, the problem w/ being the last thru the cost wringer is that where AA's costs are relative to the labor market look even worse off.

jersey,
look at AA/US pilot scales for starters on airlinepilotcentral.com and you'll see that AA and US pilots apart- let alone together - are below DL and UA.
Some groups might not be as far off but Bob will tell you how far below average AA's mechanic salaries are.

Different employee groups at AA and US aren't in the same ranking as other employee groups at other airlines WRT compensation but two key groups - pilots and mechanics are significantly below their peers at DL and UA - and it will take billions of dollars to bring them up to average.

 

[700UW]

Except those airlines added a part of there system needed to grow world wide. usair adds a nothing but a domestic operation. DAL and UAL added South America and a Pacific operation. usair doesn't offer either. They operate secondary hubs, and connect just more transferring domestic passengers. AA needs to grow international and to build on that adding more flights to their hubs at MIA, LAX, JFK, DFW and ORD. usair offers a single flight to GIG and no interest in the pacific.

US Airways flies to more European cities than AA.

 

[FWAAA]

Even with all the "raises"...which in our case is still a pay cut from what we were receiving pre-bankruptcy, the new AA/USAir pay/benefits will be about equal to what both United and Delta employees have. I, as well as just about every airline analyst, think we have a much better prospect of competing against these two with a combined entity. Your doom and gloom scenario seems to be the new mantra for those that just don't want to be believe that this merger now seems inevitable.

Don't get me wrong - I think the merger will happen. The huge raises will go to the US pilots and FAs, which alone will wipe out most of the profits on the US side. The AA employees like you will get some more money than the bankruptcy LBFOs. Unless the synergies include a money-tree or golden-goose, I don't see how the combined airline pays all its labor costs without crying poor-mouth all over again. Unlike all the other airlines in Ch 11, AA did not slash its payrates for the expensive people, the pilots and FAs. You may not be at the industry pinnacle of pay right now, but you're far from the bottom.

robbedagain thinks that AA is headed to a repeat Ch 11 if it stays independent. All I'm saying is that a combined US-AA looks to be headed there even faster.

Note to Mr Owens: Yes, I know that mechanics' pay is at the bottom. I'm talking about the PILOTS and FAs. The ones with better unions and better negotiators.

 

[FWAAA]

Just for the record, can you provide the number again of how much US' labor costs would go up if they had to pay AA's labor rates? Granted that number is a little dusty but even if it is cut in half, it shows how much it will cost to bring US employees up to industry average wages - and well beyond what most people will acknowledge.

Couple of problems - first, the source was Vaughn Cordle, whom many discredit (apparently, analysts are golden unless their views are inconsistent with labor's objectives, and then their numbers are useless). 😀

The second problem is that it's not how much US' labor costs would go up, it was how much AA would have saved if it had US' labor costs, and Cordle's number was $2.2 billion, substantially more savings than if AA had UA's or DL's labor costs. The article is here:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/300743-is-bankruptcy-the-best-solution-for-amr

Cordle was talking about mainline only and said that AA would save $440 million with UA's costs and would save $900 million if it had DL's costs. According to Cordle, if AA had Alaska's labor costs, it would save $1.9 billion.

Cordle's numbers appear a little high, based on back of the envelope calculations. In the latest rejected TA, US FAs turned down raises that would have cost Parker's US a total of $40 million a year but would not have raised US FA expense as high as AA's LBFO levels. The US pilots would need at least a couple hundred million dollars a year (and probably more than that) to get them to AA's payrates (5,000 pilots X $40k/yr). There's at least $240 million. From AA's standpoint, with 8,000 pilots, that would equal $320 million a year savings at US pilot costs. For discussion purposes, AA might save about $80 million on FAs with US' FA costs. That's a total of just $400 million, and I'm not sure that agents, mechanics and fleet would provide the difference.

 

[Bob Owens]

Note to Mr Owens: Yes, I know that mechanics' pay is at the bottom. I'm talking about the PILOTS and FAs. The ones with better unions and better negotiators.

I guess you could throw in the agents as well, they have no union and they arent as far into the bottom as we are.

 

[FA Mikey]

US Airways flies to more European cities than AA.

They have to they are not a partner in any alliance. Its that or nothing.