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pilots and flight attendants BOTH sign a merger agreement!

The ramp, mechanic and related, maintenance training specialists, dispatchers, customer service and res, all have joint contracts.

The internal pilot seniority dispute has been the cause of why the pilots are integrated and the flight attendants have voted down two tentative agreements.

The ramp and mechanic and related are currently in section 6 negotiations for their second CBA as well as the CWA.
 
My point still is valid. Issues do exist. Unless they are streamlined a AA merger will complicate things.

True or false? Do the Passenger Service agents have two unions representing them? I read Teamsters for one group and CWA for another.

How many unions are on the property at USAir and who do they represent?

How many Arbitrated decisions currently exist that have fences or walls in place at USAir?

SWA modo is your free to move about the country.
Are ALL employees at USAir free to move about the system as well without restrictions or penalties?

At AA the exTWA pilots have a fence or wall. That is the only one I can think of that directly affects a current AA employee to work or bid anywhere in the system.
 
If things are running that good at USAir how come Parker and company can not settle on contracts, work rules, integration and labor disputes directly related to the previous merger or mergers? Bringing AA into the mix is out of Parkers league. Who is fooling who here? USAir does not give that warm and fuzzy feeling with mergers.

I think you are misinterpreting the point of my post.

Not trying to fool anyone. Just pointing out some hypocrisy and cheap shots from the FFOCUS / COCKROACH contigent. Please don't mistake my holding Art accountable for his history of cheap shots and manipulation as cheerleading for a merger. Unless you were a longtime reader of the US boards years ago, you may not understand the history of this group of frequent fliers and their sense of entitlement.

I have never been a vocal proponent of the merger. My position has always been that it "probably" gives the best chance for "most" of the current employees of both airlines to continue their employment uninterrupted for the next decade or however long they wish. The failure to combine may prove be detrimental to both groups in the long run. So I guess you could categorize me as "cautious, but open minded."

I said US Airways is running a good operation. Look at the performance statistics and see for yourself. That's pretty much a black and white, fact based, non emotional issue.

As far as contracts, I'm going to assume you are referring to the ongoing pilot situation, please clarify if I misunderstood you. The flight attendants had two TA's that they rejected, and I respect the voters' voice on that. The other groups are combined. So as far as work rules and labor disputes, number one unresolved would be the pilots, with the flight attendants next.

One should make a distinction when looking at this situation. Our emotions may lead us to one kneejerk response, but a further analysis of the facts and possibilities may lead our intellect to another opinion. As, emotionally, I do not look forward to another merger and the associated headaches, but it may be in my long term self interest to look at it differently.

You don't see a lot of people voluntarily resigning working here. The bad economy is an incentive to stay employed obviously, but in truth, the working conditions are not that bad and our labor management relations are much less strained and confrontational than with past US management. Are things perfect? No of course not, but it's all relative and subjective isn't it? US has had a history of carpetbagger style upper management coming in and leaving in a few years with millions, we don't have rose colored glasses on in assessing the intentions of our CEO's and their minions.

The simple fact is that Doug's job is to maximize shareholder revenue and operate the airline as efficiently as possible. The pilots inability to resolve their internal disputes has played into managements hands, and kept costs down. It is in Doug's favor to allow these two dysfunctional groups to bicker as long as they want and keep the costs down. Had the pilots had the foresight to see it was in their self interest to make some concessions to each pilot groups position, and unify as one voice years ago, they would have obtained a contract long ago and been much better off financially. They screwed up, and Doug has been the beneficiary of their actions. I'm sure he's content to let them bicker (thus keeping costs down)... it's not his job to make pilots "happy."

I understand the anguish and turmoil a lot of AA employees feel, and I sincerely wish the best possible outcome for all. Personally, I can take it or leave it (merger), however, it will probably happen in some form or fashion, and the challenge for all of us will be to accept it for what it is and make it work, either way.

Good luck to you guys and gals if you go it alone, and I look forward to working with the AA people should we combine.
 
True or false? Do the Passenger Service agents have two unions representing them? I read Teamsters for one group and CWA for another.

How many unions are on the property at USAir and who do they represent?

How many Arbitrated decisions currently exist that have fences or walls in place at USAir?

SWA modo is your free to move about the country.
Are ALL employees at USAir free to move about the system as well without restrictions or penalties?

At AA the exTWA pilots have a fence or wall. That is the only one I can think of that directly affects a current AA employee to work or bid anywhere in the system.


The pilots and flight attendants at US Airways have never worked under one unified contract, and are limited to bidding and or bumping to the stations on their respective (separate) "East" and "West" contracts.

The passenger service employees have a combined contract but it is administered by two different unions (East & West). I do not know if any fences exist, but I doubt it.

As far as I know all the other groups have no fences in their unified contracts. A former US Airways mechanic can bid or bump PHX, or other west stations, a former AW mechanic can bid or bump PHL or CLT or any east city, lots of bumped ramp service people from PHX or LAS have come east.
 
The pilots and flight attendants at US Airways have never worked under one unified contract, and are limited to bidding and or bumping to the stations on their respective (separate) "East" and "West" contracts.

The passenger service employees have a combined contract but it is administered by two different unions (East & West). I do not know if any fences exist, but I doubt it.

As far as I know all the other groups have no fences in their unified contracts. A former US Airways mechanic can bid or bump PHX, or other west stations, a former AW mechanic can bid or bump PHL or CLT or any east city, lots of bumped ramp service people from PHX or LAS have come east.

So, it's very possible for the merged airline to have 3 separate pilot unions. Each one operating under it's own contract?
 
So, it's very possible for the merged airline to have 3 separate pilot unions. Each one operating under it's own contract?


No, there won't be 3 separate pilot unions. There will be one union, APA.

At US Airways there is only one union representing pilots, USAPA. This one union is split into infighting among themselves, generally characterized as East and West, (although there are some moderates on both sides) and has been unable to reach one unified contract agreement.

If a merger were to take place, the surviving union would be the existing AA union (APA), and the dysfunctional USAPA would cease to exist. The former US Airways pilots would become APA members and work under the existing AA contract at some point, or a new transitional agreement would be negotiated. AA pilots hold all the power to control any representational elections and or contract ratification by their huge majority numbers.

A merger with AA would be a financial windfall for the US pilots that come over and they will be happy to be onboard with APA. I think its possible the transitional agreement could include some fences to protect the career expectations of current AA pilots, but that is not uncommon with pilot contracts in mergers.
 
Is everyone starting to see how much of a cluster this is going to be unless we all have one agreement in place. Do you think any one work group or union is going to concede?
 
No, there won't be 3 separate pilot unions. There will be one union, APA.

At US Airways there is only one union representing pilots, USAPA. This one union is split into infighting among themselves, generally characterized as East and West, (although there are some moderates on both sides) and has been unable to reach one unified contract agreement.

If a merger were to take place, the surviving union would be the existing AA union (APA), and the dysfunctional USAPA would cease to exist. The former US Airways pilots would become APA members and work under the existing AA contract at some point, or a new transitional agreement would be negotiated. AA pilots hold all the power to control any representational elections and or contract ratification by their huge majority numbers.

A merger with AA would be a financial windfall for the US pilots that come over and they will be happy to be onboard with APA. I think its possible the transitional agreement could include some fences to protect the career expectations of current AA pilots, but that is not uncommon with pilot contracts in mergers.

Welcome back, your previous 3 posts are some of the best and most factual that I have read in a long time.
 
but you just ignore the comment from 1AA which cannot be dismissed as a very real possibility?

How do you or anyone know which union will be the surviving union?

More importantly, how do you or anyone think that alot of the people who are represented by the 2 or 3 unions for each of the major workgroups will be happy w/ the results of a combination?

And MOST importantly, few people are interested in participating in a merger unless they can participate financially... and we have yet to see any guarantees that US/AA can or will pay the salaries that so many people here seem to think they are going to obtain?

Has any one of the labor groups that are pushing for this merger totaled up the billions of dollars of pay raises that will be necessary to meet expectations?

Anyone who doesn't consider the possibility that they are signing on to a blank check that will have turned out to be voided is almost certainly going to be disappointed a few years down the road.

The math between expectations on labor's part and AA/US' ability to pay just don't add up.
 
Welcome back, your previous 3 posts are some of the best and most factual that I have read in a long time.
Sounds good but with all the NDA's signed by the unions how go you know all this will pan out? Nobody is talking any details right now.
 
I think that you answered your own question, the NDA =no details at this point. As far as surviving unions, I think that has just about been determined already.
 
but you just ignore the comment from 1AA which cannot be dismissed as a very real possibility?

There cannot be 3 pilot unions when you combine 2 pilot unions. The APA will absorb the current US pilots due to the overwhelming majority of AA pilots.

How do you or anyone know which union will be the surviving union?

Math.

More importantly, how do you or anyone think that alot of the people who are represented by the 2 or 3 unions for each of the major workgroups will be happy w/ the results of a combination?

Happiness is an intangible and entirely subjective experience that is not a factor considered when two airlines merge. Did Delta poll each NW and Delta employee to see if they were "happy"?

And MOST importantly, few people are interested in participating in a merger unless they can participate financially... and we have yet to see any guarantees that US/AA can or will pay the salaries that so many people here seem to think they are going to obtain?

No one is guaranteed anything in life. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.


I don't have an emotional investment in this merger. If it happens, I'll make the best of it. Same if it doesn't. You have an extreme emotional bias and obsession to shoot it down. It's apparent to all your Delta-centric world view. One can only conclude you feel threatened by a combined AA/US carrier. Otherwise, why would you put so much time and emotional effort into denigrating it, if you have no personal or financial investment. I'm getting a paycheck and I care much less than you appear to whether it goes through or not.
 
PLEASE...The IAM never AGREED to a staple. The only entity that could determine seniority was the APFA. The IAM could have asked and asked and kicked their feet and yelled and screamed but the only one that could make the decision was the APFA. The merger committee was disbanded and there was NEVER a vote by the AA f/as and there certainly wasn't a vote by the former TWA f/as. There was NEVER a court decision re: seniority. There was a dismissal based on procedural issues but seniority was never addressed. The SIA was changed and the "fence" was breached in direct violation of the SIA. It was and always has been selective interpretation. Initially, both JFK and STL were seniority protected. Then the SIA was modified to only STL and then AA f/as were allowed to relinguish their AA metal certification and become TWALLC f/as to fly out of STL. There was never an arbitration and only one short discussion. Hardly what one would call negotiating. I suggest you read the Jan., 2011 SKYWARD. It discusses the MERGER between AA and TWA. Remember assets are acquired then merged. Have fun this time around...could be a bumpy ride.
 
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You don't see a lot of people voluntarily resigning working here. The bad economy is an incentive to stay employed obviously, but in truth, the working conditions are not that bad and our labor management relations are much less strained and confrontational than with past US management. Are things perfect? No of course not, but it's all relative and subjective isn't it?
...

I don't know about your work area, but in my old work area they've lost 1/4 of the people in the last year. I know it's a small station with 24 people, but I think that speaks to the way U treats its people. Everyone left for better jobs, and I know of at least 4 more actively searching elsewhere.
 
I don't have an emotional investment in this merger. If it happens, I'll make the best of it. Same if it doesn't. You have an extreme emotional bias and obsession to shoot it down. It's apparent to all your Delta-centric world view. One can only conclude you feel threatened by a combined AA/US carrier. Otherwise, why would you put so much time and emotional effort into denigrating it, if you have no personal or financial investment. I'm getting a paycheck and I care much less than you appear to whether it goes through or not.
yet, there all kinds of other people who see the disaster that most airline mergers are and are free to say so but because I mention the same reality, including existing labor turmoil at both AA and US, somehow we are supposed to believe that this one will turn into the fairy tale that a few top managers want to hope will be the outcome?

No, the idea of an AA-US merger is a worse idea than it was when US tried to unsuccessfully merge with UA and DL years ago and it isn't going to get any better.

How some people can gullibly believe that this will all be unicorns and lollipops is beyond me.....

but since far too many want to shoot the messenger, you can be assured I'll be right here w/ color commentary when it all turns out far short of what so many expected.

Making the most of a situation over which you have no control is one thing... but AA's labor unions are actively seeking a plan which will create enormous risk and undo alot of the benefits that AA has gained in BK as they try to share those gains w/ US, which has yet to reach a level of profitability that it should be at the better part of a decade after its merger which was supposed to create all kinds of value to employees and shareholders - yet hasn't.
 

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