pilots and flight attendants BOTH sign a merger agreement!

[wings396]

I suppose there are no unicorns or lollipops at Delta then either, or do they have them in their airline wonderworld?

 

[WorldTraveler]

nope, there are no unicorns or lollipops in life... period.

What it absolutely slays you to admit is that DL actually merged two companies, created more wealth that is now enjoyed by all including employees, and they have gained a huge amount of that wealth by taking revenue from AA and US. US signed away 1/4 of the slots at LGA to DL and just as I predicted, DL is using its newfound strength in NYC largely against those airlines that have the least financial strength compared to DL - which just happen to be AA and US.

Yet somehow we are supposed to believe that the "strategists" at US who didn't see this coming are going to turn this merger into a winner for everyone, including employees?

Really?

Keep writing... it just gives more documentation to use to show how convinced you were this merger would produce results that NO ONE can show the math how it will work... the only response I've heard is "just trust them"

The following is EXACTLY the reality that AA people will face after a merger with US, yet for some completely unknown reason, AA labor unions keep pursuing one.

I don't know about your work area, but in my old work area they've lost 1/4 of the people in the last year. I know it's a small station with 24 people, but I think that speaks to the way U treats its people. Everyone left for better jobs, and I know of at least 4 more actively searching elsewhere.

maybe the TWU will turn out to be the smartest union on AA property by not participating in these discussions, assuming they are not.

 

[IORFA]

PLEASE...The IAM never AGREED to a staple. The only entity that could determine seniority was the APFA. The IAM could have asked and asked and kicked their feet and yelled and screamed but the only one that could make the decision was the APFA. The merger committee was disbanded and there was NEVER a vote by the AA f/as and there certainly wasn't a vote by the former TWA f/as. There was NEVER a court decision re: seniority. There was a dismissal based on procedural issues but seniority was never addressed. The SIA was changed and the "fence" was breached in direct violation of the SIA. It was and always has been selective interpretation. Initially, both JFK and STL were seniority protected. Then the SIA was modified to only STL and then AA f/as were allowed to relinguish their AA metal certification and become TWALLC f/as to fly out of STL. There was never an arbitration and only one short discussion. Hardly what one would call negotiating. I suggest you read the Jan., 2011 SKYWARD. It discusses the MERGER between AA and TWA. Remember assets are acquired then merged. Have fun this time around...could be a bumpy ride.

It is called SKYWORD, also, the SIA, mandated that if there were furloughs, that they would be in strict seniority order. So how was that a breach? If you are junior, even within the so-called fence that was STL, then you got furloughed. Pretty simple really. No selective interpretation as you would like to say. You just didn't like the outcome, so you come here and start to twist facts to your liking. However wrong that may be.

 

[wings396]

nope, there are no unicorns or lollipops in life... period.

What it absolutely slays you to admit is that DL actually merged two companies, created more wealth that is now enjoyed by all including employees, and they have gained a huge amount of that wealth by taking revenue from AA and US. US signed away 1/4 of the slots at LGA to DL and just as I predicted, DL is using its newfound strength in NYC largely against those airlines that have the least financial strength compared to DL - which just happen to be AA and US.

Yet somehow we are supposed to believe that the "strategists" at US who didn't see this coming are going to turn this merger into a winner for everyone, including employees?

Really?

Keep writing... it just gives more documentation to use to show how convinced you were this merger would produce results that NO ONE can show the math how it will work... the only response I've heard is "just trust them"

The following is EXACTLY the reality that AA people will face after a merger with US, yet for some completely unknown reason, AA labor unions keep pursuing one.



maybe the TWU will turn out to be the smartest union on AA property by not participating in these discussions, assuming they are not.

A new year, and you are still spewing your know it all BS.
Hasn't the UCC or the AA BOD given you a call yet so that you could enlighten them?
Oh, I forgot only DL can pull off a successful merger where all of the employees are singing while being showered with profits falling from above.

 

[Phoenix]

Every time WT shows up I get this feeling that we are supposed to believe that Delta will be the only airline in the world by the end of the year.

 

[WorldTraveler]

As much as you (collectively) may hate to admit it, DL has done mergers and acquisitions better than any other airline in an industry where M&As normally (not as an exception, but the norm) lead to labor discord over integration issues and a distinct difference between the promises that were made prior to the merger and what has actually occurred.
The reason why I continue to bring DL into this conversation is because DL’s merger is finished – settled – and because it is settled and DL is reaping the benefits of the merger including the revenue synergies that are promised in every merger, DL is now focusing its competitive attention on growing its network.
Remember that the promise of ALL airline mergers is that being as big as or bigger than one’s competitors is what is necessary in order to succeed… because there is no evidence of long term successful “niche” airlines and size does matter in the airline industry.
DL’s efforts are now focused on defending its own presence in the SE as well as expanding in other regions of the country, including in LAX. I have said for years that DL’s competitive efforts would shift to the western US once the slot swap was finally settled and that is exactly what is happening.
Competitively, DL knew full well that the AA-US merger was a possibility and DL is going to do everything possible to ensure that AA-US gains no competitive advantage in markets that matter to DL as a result of this merger. Some here seem to think I am personally threatened but in fact DL is doing what any good company is doing in strengthening their position relative to their competitors, regardless of what their competitors do, and growing their revenue – and they don’t really care where that revenue growth comes from.
DL is just as interested in reducing the competitive value UA is gaining from its still very unfinished merger as well as regain territory in NYC that B6 took a decade ago and which DL wants back.
Because the airline business creates benefits because of size, DL is simply trying to grow its presence in key markets throughout the world including the US; many of those key markets are flown by competitors. DL does not need to eliminate every competitor (and it won’t) but it does intend to have a presence in every market that matters at a size that is large enough to gain a meaningful share of the business in those markets. And DL intends to grow its network faster than other carriers and become the closest thing to the one-stop shop that many clients want in an airline – just as they would want from an office supply company or an in-flight caterer.
That type of strategic thinking is what well-run companies do and it isn’t personal that I continue to mention the gap between where AA and US are today and where they need to be.

But forget Delta Air Lines if it bothers you to include them in the conversation.

The key questions about this merger which remain unanswered from labor’s standpoint are not specific to DL – IF WE LOOK AT THE WORLD AS IT EXISTS TODAY. (of course, the world won’t stand still and neither will other competitors including DL. Too many people on here have assumed that AA-US as the last merger will be free to accomplish its objectives while other competitors sit passively on the side line and cheer AA-US on…. It doesn’t work that way).
Given that AA has lost over $1.5B in the last year and it was only asking for about $1B in labor concessions, where are the profits that are necessary to make AA viable long term? AA needs to generate profits of $1B or more per year whether as a standalone or as their share of a merged AA-US and they are nowhere near that amount and won’t be even with the cost cuts they should gain in BK.
US should report very good financials for 2012 but they aren’t going to report profits large enough to offset the lack of profits at AA – a much larger company than US – or on par with other carriers in the industry who are reporting much higher profit margins.
Even if US took every dollar in profits it is making and gave it to its employees in pay raises, US employees are still well below average in compensation compared to other airline employees.
AA unions think that the result of this merger is going to be a return to compensation than what they would have received under the BK contracts, but where is the money coming from to pay for all these EXPECTED raises from labor – and note than neither AA or US mgmt or AMR creditors have ever said that it is their intention to raise pay rates at a combined airline to a level even close to average for the result of the industry.
Even if you assume that AA/US really can get all of the promised revenue synergies they are promising – which again has rarely happened in US airline mergers – AA/US is still billions of dollars short of having enough money to offer significant pay raises. Those kinds of revenue synergies MIGHT generate profitability on par with other carriers but to think that they will reduce that newfound profitability to hand out pay raises once they have the merger in the bag is more than a bit naïve. Pay raises will be handed out when AA/US are as profitable or more profitable than other carriers on a sustained basis – and after the airline is sufficiently merged, a process that will take years.
And don’t forget that there will have to be capacity cut which means further layoffs – and the combined AA/US today already has at least 10,000 more employees than DL or UA which should generate comparable revenue, even accounting for in-house maintenance and in-house subsidiaries like Eagle etc.

I have absolutely no problem w/ seeing AA/US successfully merge and would love to see their people succeed because of this merger…..
What is far more likely to happen is that AA will give away a lot of the benefits it has gained in BK to make a merger with US happen and by growing into the leagues of DL, UA, and even into WN territory, will force competitive responses from all of them that not only will result in AA/US missing the revenue synergies that will be promised as part of the merger, but also result in a weaker AA/US than either carrier would have been had they stayed independent.
And most importantly, employees will face further layoffs and will not see the pay raises they expected – even if they actually are promised by management. So AA and US employees will jump thru hurdles thinking they will be better off, only to work for a company that is under greater competitive attack than they would have been had they remained independent and employees will fare far worse than if AA and US had not merged.

I am not the villain for telling you the Cold Hard Truth which is going to happen whether I say it or not. My intention is that the readers of this forum be aware of the situation they face. In the hype about this merger – and I can’t recall a merger in any industry that was as hyped as this one has been – a lot of basic logic and analysis is getting lost or ignored.

 

[700UW]

How many threads that arent about Delta are you going to turn this into DL is great everyone else sucks?

Cant you just leave it be and discuss it on the DL board?

This thread is about AA, US, and how the pilots and FAs have an MOU about the merger process.

Give it a rest all ready, and if you are all that about aviation why arent you at DL still, an airline CEO or an airline wall street guru?

Everyone is tired of you highjacking a thread and turning it into DL.

Ask the Pan Am people how DL treated them and the NW people, you arent on the inside, you dont know what is going on, your on the outside.

 

[WorldTraveler]

did you not read a word?

DL is a direct competitor to AA and US and right now a pretty successful one. To somehow think that DL is going to just sit by and allow AA and US to move in together and horn in on the growth that DL is enjoying right is downright short of stupid.

DL hired every single one of the NW employees and 6500 Pan Am employees. What other airline hired 6500 PA employees even though other airlines (UA specifically) bought the most valauble parts of UA's franchise over a period of decades.

The only NW employees who were not retained at DL were those who chose not to move, largely to ATL, as well as some in mgmt. Again, tell me how many other airline mergers that are settled - UA is not yet - have done as well, CBA or not.

But the real questions which I asked - and which people like you who vigorously support the merger seem to continually avoid answering - are basic questions about how AA/US is going to come up w/ the cash to increase AA/US pay levels and retain the tens of thousands of employees that seem to think this merger is going to be better than sliced bread.

Perhaps if you and others could focus on the billions of dollars in disconnect and the tens of thousands of excess employees above what competitors have and quit trying to worry about what DL has done in successful and closed mergers/acquisitions, then I wouldn't need to keep bringing up these very painful questions.

Right now, there are a whole bunch of people just like you who are pushing a plan that is far beyond too good to be true - and your inability to even allow those questions to be asked shows how very dangerous the answers to those questions are to efforts to push the merger.

Answer the basic questions, 700.

 

[700UW]

Once again, what does DL have to do with the pilots and flight attendants at AA and US and the fact they reached an agreement on a merger process?

Not a damn thing.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yet you can't and won't answer the basic questions concerning billions of dollars in expectations of pay raises and where the revenue and profitability to pay for them comes from.

DL has nothing to do with those answers other than to continue to stay on AA and US' case and will only increase their competitive assaults on AA and US' efforts the closer it appears that AA and US will get to having an impact on DL.

Answer the questions.

 

[johnny kat]

The only real reason for this merger to occur is it will provide adequate payback to the creditors, provide investors a way to recoup some losses, enrich management and ...wait for it......ensure an acceptable amount of real competition in the US aviation industry to consumers.

Notice the employees aren't mentioned in the above statement. That is because over the course of time (no one knows how much time) the new AA will do an internal restructuring that will eliminate redundant employees. It happens in every merger, to think otherwise is to stick head in sand. IMHO

 

[diamondcutter]

As much as you (collectively) may hate to admit it, DL has done mergers and acquisitions better than any other airline in an industry where M&As normally (not as an exception, but the norm) lead to labor discord over integration issues and a distinct difference between the promises that were made prior to the merger and what has actually occurred.
The reason why I continue to bring DL into this conversation is because DL’s merger is finished – settled – and because it is settled and DL is reaping the benefits of the merger including the revenue synergies that are promised in every merger, DL is now focusing its competitive attention on growing its network.
Remember that the promise of ALL airline mergers is that being as big as or bigger than one’s competitors is what is necessary in order to succeed… because there is no evidence of long term successful “niche” airlines and size does matter in the airline industry.
DL’s efforts are now focused on defending its own presence in the SE as well as expanding in other regions of the country, including in LAX. I have said for years that DL’s competitive efforts would shift to the western US once the slot swap was finally settled and that is exactly what is happening.
Competitively, DL knew full well that the AA-US merger was a possibility and DL is going to do everything possible to ensure that AA-US gains no competitive advantage in markets that matter to DL as a result of this merger. Some here seem to think I am personally threatened but in fact DL is doing what any good company is doing in strengthening their position relative to their competitors, regardless of what their competitors do, and growing their revenue – and they don’t really care where that revenue growth comes from.
DL is just as interested in reducing the competitive value UA is gaining from its still very unfinished merger as well as regain territory in NYC that B6 took a decade ago and which DL wants back.
Because the airline business creates benefits because of size, DL is simply trying to grow its presence in key markets throughout the world including the US; many of those key markets are flown by competitors. DL does not need to eliminate every competitor (and it won’t) but it does intend to have a presence in every market that matters at a size that is large enough to gain a meaningful share of the business in those markets. And DL intends to grow its network faster than other carriers and become the closest thing to the one-stop shop that many clients want in an airline – just as they would want from an office supply company or an in-flight caterer.
That type of strategic thinking is what well-run companies do and it isn’t personal that I continue to mention the gap between where AA and US are today and where they need to be.

But forget Delta Air Lines if it bothers you to include them in the conversation.

The key questions about this merger which remain unanswered from labor’s standpoint are not specific to DL – IF WE LOOK AT THE WORLD AS IT EXISTS TODAY. (of course, the world won’t stand still and neither will other competitors including DL. Too many people on here have assumed that AA-US as the last merger will be free to accomplish its objectives while other competitors sit passively on the side line and cheer AA-US on…. It doesn’t work that way).
Given that AA has lost over $1.5B in the last year and it was only asking for about $1B in labor concessions, where are the profits that are necessary to make AA viable long term? AA needs to generate profits of $1B or more per year whether as a standalone or as their share of a merged AA-US and they are nowhere near that amount and won’t be even with the cost cuts they should gain in BK.
US should report very good financials for 2012 but they aren’t going to report profits large enough to offset the lack of profits at AA – a much larger company than US – or on par with other carriers in the industry who are reporting much higher profit margins.
Even if US took every dollar in profits it is making and gave it to its employees in pay raises, US employees are still well below average in compensation compared to other airline employees.
AA unions think that the result of this merger is going to be a return to compensation than what they would have received under the BK contracts, but where is the money coming from to pay for all these EXPECTED raises from labor – and note than neither AA or US mgmt or AMR creditors have ever said that it is their intention to raise pay rates at a combined airline to a level even close to average for the result of the industry.
Even if you assume that AA/US really can get all of the promised revenue synergies they are promising – which again has rarely happened in US airline mergers – AA/US is still billions of dollars short of having enough money to offer significant pay raises. Those kinds of revenue synergies MIGHT generate profitability on par with other carriers but to think that they will reduce that newfound profitability to hand out pay raises once they have the merger in the bag is more than a bit naïve. Pay raises will be handed out when AA/US are as profitable or more profitable than other carriers on a sustained basis – and after the airline is sufficiently merged, a process that will take years.
And don’t forget that there will have to be capacity cut which means further layoffs – and the combined AA/US today already has at least 10,000 more employees than DL or UA which should generate comparable revenue, even accounting for in-house maintenance and in-house subsidiaries like Eagle etc.

I have absolutely no problem w/ seeing AA/US successfully merge and would love to see their people succeed because of this merger…..
What is far more likely to happen is that AA will give away a lot of the benefits it has gained in BK to make a merger with US happen and by growing into the leagues of DL, UA, and even into WN territory, will force competitive responses from all of them that not only will result in AA/US missing the revenue synergies that will be promised as part of the merger, but also result in a weaker AA/US than either carrier would have been had they stayed independent.
And most importantly, employees will face further layoffs and will not see the pay raises they expected – even if they actually are promised by management. So AA and US employees will jump thru hurdles thinking they will be better off, only to work for a company that is under greater competitive attack than they would have been had they remained independent and employees will fare far worse than if AA and US had not merged.

I am not the villain for telling you the Cold Hard Truth which is going to happen whether I say it or not. My intention is that the readers of this forum be aware of the situation they face. In the hype about this merger – and I can’t recall a merger in any industry that was as hyped as this one has been – a lot of basic logic and analysis is getting lost or ignored.

WT are you one of the USC BOD CEO labor leaders? I think not . All have signed a NDA,so you have no idea of any plans or financials and won't . You post as if it is gospel and a warning !
Your fasination with DL has just gotten creepy !!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

The continued deflection from the real issues of the merger to trying to attack me regarding DL is what borders on criminally insane.

I don't have to be see any super inside documents - there are tons of them that are public knowledge RIGHT NOW including the current state of AA and US - to know that the expectations from alot of AA and US employees is VASTLY disconnected from the reality of what can occur.

Kat has got it.... this merger is nothing short of an effort to protect and enrich the interests of investors while failing to deal with the long-term strategic issues that will take years to solve - and may not be solveable at all. And by the time the excuses run out about merger integration, the investors have long since cashed out.

Take a look at UA which is 2 years into its merger and has used merger integration as an excuse for the entire two years. Has it not crossed ANYONE's mind that perhaps UA is unable to live up to the hype it promised and that in order to be long-term viable they will have to cut a whole lot of capacity and employees -but they know full well that if they let that cat out of the bag right now, they will never get the other labor groups merged?

WAKE UP, people.

 

[700UW]

 

[WorldTraveler]

of course it is off topic because you can't answer the basic questions.

It is ON TOPIC as long as you can continue to push your agenda.

We're smarter than that, thank you very much.

Just answer the basic questions that involve billions of dollars and thousands of jobs.

kat sees it. Why can't you?