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pilots and flight attendants BOTH sign a merger agreement!

You can say what you want about lawyers, if there werent in the room when the CBAs were negotiated they have no idea on the intent of the language.

I have seen US's lawyers in action arbitration and they had no idea of the intent of the language and how it was applied, especially in the Airbus Arbitration the company and its lawyers were 100% certain they would win, and they lost soundly.

Their case was presented and prepared by lawyers, our case was done by the union reps and checked by lawyers, hmm, who won?

The union reps who negotiated and enforced the language, not a suit and tie guy with no experience.

You have twisted this from the interpretation of the MB and other laws into no one can understand the intent of an agreement if they are not in the room. By doing so you have just strenthened my argument, that trying to figure out the intent of a law or agreement as a third party outsider is difficult and is something that judges try to avoid. However, if there is no option but to judge intent because there exists no BLACK AND WHITE wording, then intent becomes a factor. So again, regarding the MB, it does not specifically outlaw stapleing, it leaves it up the arbitrator to decide what is and is not "fair and equitable", an arbitrator who per your argument "wasn't in the room so doesn't know the intent". In other words, his interpretation can go against the "intent" of the people in the room writing the law.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757
 
You have twisted this from the interpretation of the MB and other laws into no one can understand the intent of an agreement if they are not in the room. By doing so you have just strenthened my argument, that trying to figure out the intent of a law or agreement as a third party outsider is difficult and is something that judges try to avoid. However, if there is no option but to judge intent because there exists no BLACK AND WHITE wording, then intent becomes a factor. So again, regarding the MB, it does not specifically outlaw stapleing, it leaves it up the arbitrator to decide what is and is not "fair and equitable", an arbitrator who per your argument "wasn't in the room so doesn't know the intent". In other words, his interpretation can go against the "intent" of the people in the room writing the law.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757
You're just confusing him. He won't/can't understand that set of facts. His neighbor told him that was false, so dang it, it is false. Facts be damned.
 
Lets stop and back up to pre BK. Why did AA file? Really why did AA file for BK?

Contract negotiations were dragging on.
AA placed the worlds largest aircraft order in the history of commercial aviation.
AA has all the financing in place for this order.
AA had over $4 billion in cash at the time of filing.
Executives were receiving bonuses.
No other airline was knocking on AA's door for a merger.

The only reason was for AA to get the contracts in place that they wanted.
It worked. With the help of the BK filing AA succeeded.
AA achieved in getting the outsourcing of aircraft maintenance, fleet service, cargo and passenger service.
There never was a merger plan from the beginning.
USAir has been knocking on every airlines door that went into BK.
AA achieved their goals in BK that they could not do outside of BK.
New aircraft are coming and agreements in place.
Mission accomplished as far as I see it.
Now comes the next step. When does AA exit BK and move on.
AA spent tons of money and achieved their goals.
They are not about to let the unions tell them that they want a merger with a dysfunctional airline only to create more problems down the road.
AA has its issues but the BK filing settled most of them. Now we have to live by those decisions. A merger will lead us to another path of the unknown.
Do we really want that?
To tell you the truth its not about what the employees want.... bec amr is ch11 still... the creditors will demand to get more in the return and IF it takes a merger to do so then they will force the company to take the merger regardless i have always thought the one solid reason for aa ch11 was simply to cut the contracts to be close on par with US rather than DL and UA
 
To tell you the truth its not about what the employees want.... bec amr is ch11 still... the creditors will demand to get more in the return and IF it takes a merger to do so then they will force the company to take the merger regardless

It's difficult to imagine how the creditors get more value by sharing some of the new AMR stock with LCC shareholders upon emerging from Ch 11, but maybe Parker will convince them. It looked obvious that DL and NW would merge eventually, but both emerged from Ch 11 on their own first.

i have always thought the one solid reason for aa ch11 was simply to cut the contracts to be close on par with US rather than DL and UA

Maybe that was the goal, but AA didn't reduce its wage/benefit costs anywhere near as low as US wage/benefit costs. It's not even clear that AA reduced them as low as UA or DL costs. Before Ch 11, AA's wage/benefit costs were far above UA or DL.
 
Go away Mikey, you bailed out on AA. You no longer have to worry about what "Your American Airlines" does. You took their $$$$$ and ran. Some dedicated employee you are..
 
Go away Mikey, you bailed out on AA. You no longer have to worry about what "Your American Airlines" does. You took their $$$$$ and ran. Some dedicated employee you are..


No More Soup for Mikey! 😛 😛 😛

Sorry could not resist.
 
if as you say they did not cut deep enough that sounds like a receipe for ch11 round two very similar to usairways back in the mid 2000s my neighbor used to work for aa in my station til nov 1 when they lost their jobs he is not yet 55 but aa gave him the package any how. he has a son who is now in jfk. the question is what happens to the folks in both cities that had been outsourced if the merger goes thru for us the 4 yr limit long ago expire for aa their 4 yrs began nov 1 at least from what i know
as far as jobs would go
 
Ever since AA filed its Ch 11 petition, Parker has been in a rush to get the merger done. Usually, when you're that impatient, it's because you want to seal the deal before anyone has a chance to sober up and examine things under the light of day. Not much different from a 17 year old boy. If you take your time, she may close her legs and say no before you can score, as she realizes that she can do better.

No wonder Parker is in such a hurry. If the merger of US and AA is a good idea and would make both groups better off than if they both stay single, then it will be a good idea tomorrow or next week or even next year. The other two mergers are instructive on this one. DL and NW didn't rush into bed the moment they left the bar. They took some time and courted one another. Same with UA and CO. Neither one acted like Parker. Both took their time and fully investigated whether they should merge. Parker, on the other hand, like that 17 year old virgin, is desperate. The sun is coming up and he still hasn't scored, and that daylight and passage of time might kill any chance he had. Musn't let that happen.
 
Just exactly what is considered an appropriate amount of time for one airline to court another airline? your comment is sounding a little ridiculous.

It's business and it could be argued that the only way AA affords all they want to do is by having the extra 13.7 billion in revenues US brings to the table. Not to mention the UCC would like to get a higher payback, something AA cannot provide w/o a merger.

Like it or not it makes more sense for the companies to merge because they are the only two people at the party without someone to court.
 
You have twisted this from the interpretation of the MB and other laws into no one can understand the intent of an agreement if they are not in the room. By doing so you have just strenthened my argument, that trying to figure out the intent of a law or agreement as a third party outsider is difficult and is something that judges try to avoid. However, if there is no option but to judge intent because there exists no BLACK AND WHITE wording, then intent becomes a factor. So again, regarding the MB, it does not specifically outlaw stapleing, it leaves it up the arbitrator to decide what is and is not "fair and equitable", an arbitrator who per your argument "wasn't in the room so doesn't know the intent". In other words, his interpretation can go against the "intent" of the people in the room writing the law.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757
Glad to see you totally ignored what I posted, and thats why during negotiations you take notes and keep them for when it goes to arbitration. And CBAs in the airlines arent laws, its a labor contract.
 
Maybe that was the goal, but AA didn't reduce its wage/benefit costs anywhere near as low as US wage/benefit costs. It's not even clear that AA reduced them as low as UA or DL costs. Before Ch 11, AA's wage/benefit costs were far above UA or DL.
except AA's labor cost problems wasn't because their employees were paid so much more than DL or UA employees; it is because AA was inefficient due to a larger workforce than its network could support.
THAT is why I have harped on revenue for so long.
You can shrink the workforce and their pay to a size that will fit the network - that is what US has done - but it is far easier to simply grow revenue, and that should be alot easier to do for AA than other carriers because AA has such a premium oriented network.
But because AA continues to cede markets to competitors they are only not growing their network as they said they would.
The only way to keep costs down long-term is to grow revenue through a growing network or at least replacing lower quality routes (revenue generation wise) with ones that can generate more revenue- and AA hasn't demonstrated they can do that.

If AA is pulling routes this close to emergence from BK - either independently or thru a merger - they recognize the likelihood of those routes working long term is not there.


Just exactly what is considered an appropriate amount of time for one airline to court another airline? your comment is sounding a little ridiculous.

It's business and it could be argued that the only way AA affords all they want to do is by having the extra 13.7 billion in revenues US brings to the table. Not to mention the UCC would like to get a higher payback, something AA cannot provide w/o a merger.

Like it or not it makes more sense for the companies to merge because they are the only two people at the party without someone to court.
it is precisely the "they are the last two singles" left mindset that so many of us have fought in the talk about AA-US in the 7 years since US failed at its DL takeover attempt.
There are a whole lot of unhappy couples in the world who thought they had to marry someone because they were the only viable choice instead of figure out how to be happy and successful as a single.

It is NO OFFENSE to you or anyone else who supports US, but their 13.7B in revenue isn't enough to push wage rates higher, which is really all employees care about. Stockholders might be happy to see 13.7B in revenue and an increased network but if it takes keeping wages well below average or keeps AA employees from using the profits they could generate from the merger to increase their own wages, then the merger is not worth it.

AA-US is based on the flawed logic that AA-US will enjoy revenue growth because DL has seen it as the first merger that was consummated. But the reality is that UA has not seen much in revenue growth as much as they would like to blame it on integration issues. UA/CO's network was built on large presences in key cities -but does not have the presence in many medium and small cities that can create merger synergies. (UA's presence in EWR did little to help the combined airline just as CO in SFO did nothing there).
If you look at DL-NW and WN-FL, they have worked/are working because they are eliminating less profitable flying and redeploying it elsewhere.
Because AA-US is the last merger to occur, they are fighting to hold onto their presence in large markets like NYC but also are going to much harder pressed to generate revenue synergies in medium/small cities because 3 other mergers before them have already focused on that - and those other carriers are not going to roll over and let AA-US succeed in their backyards (and that applies to everyone of AA-US key hubs or regions w/ the exception of MIA-Latin America right now).

Thus, all the talk of the revenue that AA-US will generate misses the reality that AA-US is number 4 out of 4 in a consolidating industry, they are the two weakest players now who will have to fight to make the merger work in other carriers' backyards, and AA-US still does not serve many of the key strategic necessities for being a global carrier which is what AA-US says.

Above all, saying that "we will hitch up" because it is better than being single is a recipe for disaster.
 
Hey I just made up a new drinking game, every time WT posts DL in thread or topic that has nothing to do with DL, everyone take a shot!
 
so why are you in AA's forum, 700? Didn't you come from US?

The reality is that you have tried every game in the book to try to silence the opposition's voice because you can't counter the arguments.

I'm not going anywhere.

AA and US independently or together compete with DL and UA and a whole bunch of other airlines.

FWAAA is capable of recognizing that and it was to his comments that I responded.

Put on the big boy underwear.
 
What is the topic of the thread?

I debate with facts, dont highjack threads like you.

The topic of the thread is about the Pilots and Flight Attendants signing MOU's about the merger process.

Nothing in the topic is about delta.

I dont silence opposing views, I counter them.

Take off your delta thong and wear mens underwear.

dontflydelta-300x225.jpg
 

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