pilots and flight attendants BOTH sign a merger agreement!

[700UW]

 

[WorldTraveler]

which presumably means you have no viable counterarguments.

But if I am such a high horse, then why is my score so negative?

Could it be that people really prefer to live in their fantasy world than to be brought back to the real world?

ME = Fantasy crusher ?

 

[Kev3188]

when their is a merger, you have to negotiate either a transition agreement, or a new joint CBA.

...Or both, eventually.

I think that's something that's getting lost in a lot of the discussions on here.

And no one know which union would survive, as if they gather enough cards, there will be a vote on which union to choose for each work group's representation.

Also true.

Anderson: Well, I think there's a certain logic to it, and when we read the newspapers every morning from around the country and the analysts' reports from the sell-side analysts, there seems to be an inevitability to it, and I think it will be good for the industry because to have American in bankruptcy points to the instability of the organizational construct. And so if you just read the sell-side analysts and everything coming out of American and US Air, it seems inevitable, and I think, overall, it will be good for the industry.

Dear Mr. Anderson,

I miss the days when you spoke plainly & bluntly. All of this "jargon monoxide" is really a bit much. Kthxbye.

So while DL is busy killing off MEM, MSP, and CVG...

Um, no. MEM might be on death row, but CVG has reached a sort of stasis flight activity-wise that works, and MSP is quite healthy.

 

[nevergiveup]

Are the AA pilots presently getting the new contract wages?

 

[700UW]

https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAPA/APAPublicNews/tabid/843/ctl/ArticleView/mid/1983/articleId/2488/Implementation-schedule.aspx

 

[diamondcutter]

based on the success of mergers in the industry, including each of AA and US' experiences, why wouldn't he want to see AA and US get all hot and bothered about each other, so focused on making the merger work (including cutting capacity which he does note) that DL will have all kinds of opportunities?
Of course he wants to see AA-US merge.

Perhaps it is precisely because I realize how much an AA-US merger will hurt AA and US employees and benefit everyone but the employees (including DL) that I am against it.

Better let him know I am not toeing the company line.

and we still have no price tag for the cost of bringing US and AA employees up to pay levels each will agree to....for US pilots alone, it is easily hundreds of millions of dollars.

How would YOU know the price tag, it's called an NDA and is killing you!

 

[diamondcutter]

It's fun to watch WT become unraveled . His post are getting desperate . Keep em coming WT, iv got my popcorn .

 

[700UW]

+1

 

[jimntx]

How would YOU know the price tag, it's called an NDA and is killing you!

The price tag of bringing US pilots and f/as up to AA-scale wages is NOT an NDA item. The pay rates for pilots and f/as at both airlines are a matter of public record, and always have been. Now, if you know how to do arithmetic, you can take the public record pay rates and do multiplication--you know, 2x2=4, 2x3=6, etc. That will give you a fairly close approximation of the cost of bringing US pilots and f/as up to AA scale. And, don't imagine for a second that AA pilots and f/as would be willing to take another cut to bring our pay rates down to LCC rates. If LCC had been paying the same rates as AA, or even close, over the past few years, LCC would not be a profitable airline.

That's the point that 700 keeps missing when he is quoting U.S. labor law that a new contract has to be negotiated. Yes, in the best of all possible worlds, that's the way it's supposed to work. However, U.S. labor law also says that the National Mediation Board must release a union into self-help if the company does not negotiate in good faith or after some period of time with no agreement. We, (the f/as) were
"in negotiation" for over 4 years (counting the early opener). Despite repeated offers by the union to give on certain points, the company just kept coming back with their original offer which was draconian to say the least. The company was so high-handed as to not even show up to at least one NMB-ordered negotiation session--no excuse, no "Miss Otis regrets" note. The union formally requested release on at least 3 separate occasions including that one, the NMB refused the request each time.

So, I wouldn't bet the rent money that a new contract "has to be negotiated." Maybe, maybe not. And, there's always a second trip to BK available if necessary.

 

[700UW]

Jim,

You can only be released if you are in Section 6 negotiations, negotiations for a joint CBA is not section 6, therefore you cant strike and the company cant implement.

Joint talks are not mediated by the NMB unless the parties ask for it.

US AFA and USAPA have been negotiating on and off for 7 years and have not been released to strike as they are not in Section 6 negotiations.

I have been on the negotiating committee before and have been educated at college level classes.

And the West pilots make more than the east pilots and the east flight attendants make more than the west and that has been going on since 2005, see so until new rates are agreed to in a transition agreement or a joint CBA no one gets wage increases.

Your confusing Section 6 negotiations with joint cba negotiations, two totally different things.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob Owens:

If thats the case then why not kill it as quickly as possible so the healthy carriers can pick up the capacity, and the workers?
_____________________________________________________________________

Good point! That is a very rational response and way too level headed. You and I both know the answer to the question.

Either the 2 companies get together or they don't. I am trying to be optimistic about the prospects and am hoping that together we are stronger and a whole lot of people smarter than me are saying just that.

People can argue the pros and cons of a merger til they are blue in the face and in the end it all boils down to the most basic facts about this:

The reduction of capacity due to elimination of a competitor.

The rationalization of pricing.

The increasing of market share.

A reduction in overall employee costs.

All of the above will lead to a stabilzation of not just a new AA but the entire industry warts and all.

Why would you want the worsy employer to become stronger? All that does is encourage other employers to treat yheir workers just as bad.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Why would you want the worsy employer to become stronger? All that does is encourage other employers to treat yheir workers just as bad.

yep....someone gets it


regardless of what law or mediation or negotiation allows, who wants to be a part of a merger that just increases the CF factor by 6X from the current level that it is at AA and US WRT labor relations?

Just like the notion that AA and US are going to create all this revenue and competitiveness that they don't have now, it is equally ludicrous to think that AA and US are going together will pass out pay raises that neither side has been able to give now.

It is beyond comprehension to believe that there are people who are so convinced that employees will win in this merger. Kat is absolutely right in that the merger is about the creditors and mgmt who will pocket the proceeds and leave the bill for the mployees.

And it is equally naive to think that competitors who have been able to prey on AA and US independently are somehow going to become kind and noble during the process of merging and let AA and US set up shp together.

I persist because so many here seem unable to face the realities that AA and US will face if this merger actually does happen....

and AA has not said yes, BTW.

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

Glad to see you totally ignored what I posted, and thats why during negotiations you take notes and keep them for when it goes to arbitration. And CBAs in the airlines arent laws, its a labor contract.

No I didn't ignore it, but as with everyone on these forums you just bully people, claim to know everything and twist and bounce subjects around or just attack people and post your little pics with sayings. You don't discuss things, and you are not here to have any conversation with anyone, you are here to lecture people.

You think you know more than lawyers, management..... pretty much everyone. I hope you don't have a leadership position in any of the unions, because people who think they know more than everyone around them make dangerous leaders.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[WorldTraveler]

but he has 17 million posts... of course we are all supposed to bow down and worship his holiness.....


this board exists BECAUSE no one is interested in hearing a one-sided view, regardless of whose it is, even if that concept makes some people very uncomfortable.

 

[700UW]

I am a trade unionist and have sacrificed a lot over the years for my members, I have always fought for them, learned from the ground level up to be the best rep I could be.

Always took calls on my days off, on vacation, came in early, stayed late, and always defended the membership.

Spent time on the road away from my family to protect the members, and only took the same salary as my coworkers.