PIT commuters to PHL

[PHL]

PHL-MHT and PHL-PVD were originally marketed as the PHL to Boston "area" flights. Now that WN goes PHL-BOS with 8 daily non stops, I guess they don't need those cities anymore....

I hardly think WN retreating from those PHL/PIT markets indicates any signs of resignation. Those are slow, Winter months too.

 

[signals]

I hope this wasn't because of those issues where non-rev US employees were misbehaving :angry: <_<

Who cares? US wouldn't tell anyway

 

[SparrowHawk]

This is only slightly off topic but why is it that every airline that tries to go head to head with US PIT-PHL ends up running away? Didn't AirTran try it only to promptly retreat? I think there were others too.

 

[zethya]

..............As for bigger equipment? Most of LUV's PIT-PHL traffic was connecting anyway, so the traffic increase should be able to be absorbed with seats available now....................

DOT reported Daily O&D Revenue passengers between PHL and PIT is over 1000 - with US and WN nearly equal (about 500 passengers each). US reported a higher average fare.

 

[redheadtempe33]

This is only slightly off topic but why is it that every airline that tries to go head to head with US PIT-PHL ends up running away? Didn't AirTran try it only to promptly retreat? I think there were others too.

Because, as much as people loved the fares that Southwest and AirTran brought, they continued to fly US. US has two large FF bases in both cities, plus, from PHL, US can fly a person pretty much anywhere in the US (and the world). Southwest just didn't have that.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This is only slightly off topic but why is it that every airline that tries to go head to head with US PIT-PHL ends up running away? Didn't AirTran try it only to promptly retreat? I think there were others too.

That's easy. Not a lot of people really need to go between PIT and PHL. The only really comprehensive service beyond PHL is on US Airways, and PIT people have always looked for every opportunity to book away from US Airways. Of course, that tactic has had its drawbacks for the 'burgers...that huge white elephant known as the PIT mid-field terminal.

 

[phllax]

I wonder if they will replace the WN flying with AirTran 717's? It's not a whole lot of seat difference, but WN doesn't have that many 500's to spare, and most of them stay around Texas and out West.

 

[zethya]

Because, as much as people loved the fares that Southwest and AirTran brought, they continued to fly US. US has two large FF bases in both cities, plus, from PHL, US can fly a person pretty much anywhere in the US (and the world). Southwest just didn't have that.

Although I Agree that is a logical conclusion, 500 O&D passengers/day is not an insignificant share. It's more likely that the new WN (with Airtran) needed to become more conservative (to retain profitability) and decided they could better utilize the PHL-PIT aircraft on more profitable routes, rather than continuing the low fare war indefinitly with US. As I recall, WN started the route at the same time that US was downsizing PIT and there was speculation they (US) would eliminate all except 1 or 2 PIT-PHL flights - which of course never happened. I'd speculate, that with WN exiting the route, US may very well Reduce - not increase the frequencies as they increase fares.

 

[FutureUScapt]

PHL-MHT and PHL-PVD were originally marketed as the PHL to Boston "area" flights. Now that WN goes PHL-BOS with 8 daily non stops, I guess they don't need those cities anymore....

I hardly think WN retreating from those PHL/PIT markets indicates any signs of resignation. Those are slow, Winter months too.

First off, these are permanent discontinuations, not seasonal reductions.

Secondly, this is absolutely a sign of resignation and it proves what several of us have been hypothesizing for a while - that WN has struggled to gain a foot in PHL outside of leisure markets. These reductions come less than two weeks after Gary Kelly was quoted saying that there are a multitude of routes that are unprofitable in this fuel environment. All of these shorthaul routes ran LDFs under 60% during the first 3 months of 2011 and most ran under a 50% LDF!

Lastly, while you are correct that they will continue to serve PHL-BOS, frequencies will fall from 8x daily to 5x times. All told, PHL-BOS area departures will nearly 75% from 16 to 5. And at the risk of making this statement prematurely, WN is fastly falling into the trap that has plagued others on the PHL-BOS route: Cut frequency because of poor performance, only to experience equally poor/worse performance because they offer a schedule that is uncompetitive relative to US.

 

[redheadtempe33]

I'd speculate, that with WN exiting the route, US may very well Reduce - not increase the frequencies as they increase fares.

I agree. Though I'll be flamed for saying it, I think US has purposely flown more seats than needed on this route to (in part) accomodate commuters. They could easily eliminate 1-2 flights a day without losing passengers (but would make it rough for commuters).

 

[crazystnic]

First off, these are permanent discontinuations, not seasonal reductions.

Secondly, this is absolutely a sign of resignation and it proves what several of us have been hypothesizing for a while - that WN has struggled to gain a foot in PHL outside of leisure markets. These reductions come less than two weeks after Gary Kelly was quoted saying that there are a multitude of routes that are unprofitable in this fuel environment. All of these shorthaul routes ran LDFs under 60% during the first 3 months of 2011 and most ran under a 50% LDF!

Lastly, while you are correct that they will continue to serve PHL-BOS, frequencies will fall from 8x daily to 5x times. All told, PHL-BOS area departures will nearly 75% from 16 to 5. And at the risk of making this statement prematurely, WN is fastly falling into the trap that has plagued others on the PHL-BOS route: Cut frequency because of poor performance, only to experience equally poor/worse performance because they offer a schedule that is uncompetitive relative to US.

As a BOS and sometimes MHT - PHL commuter WN loads on the MHT-PHL are really low from a casual observation.
The BOS-PHL route looks stronger from that same casual observation. Neither though are setting the world on fire...

shame for commuters to see them leave MHT-PHL..

but real problems for the PIT-PHL commuters.. I don't know how you all do it and now this!

 

[etops1]

I agree. Though I'll be flamed for saying it, I think US has purposely flown more seats than needed on this route to (in part) accomodate commuters. They could easily eliminate 1-2 flights a day without losing passengers (but would make it rough for commuters).

Why is it that people think that we should keep flts to PIT so we can help out commuters ?? If the market does not make money then you pull it regardless of how many people commute on the market. This is a business and we are here to make money. You commute because you choose to. The company has no obligation to commuters .Only to its stock holders. It may sound harsh but its the truth . No major that i know of schedules their flts because of the number of commuters there are between the two cities . They look at the revenue generating capabilities it offers . No revenue ,No flight .Commuters do not generate revenue . Paying passengers do.

 

[PullUp]

Why is it that people think that we should keep flts to PIT so we can help out commuters ?? If the market does not make money then you pull it regardless of how many people commute on the market. This is a business and we are here to make money. You commute because you choose to. The company has no obligation to commuters .Only to its stock holders. It may sound harsh but its the truth . No major that i know of schedules their flts because of the number of commuters there are between the two cities . They look at the revenue generating capabilities it offers . No revenue ,No flight .Commuters do not generate revenue . Paying passengers do.

No ride to workee, no crew in Phl-ee.

 

[Reed Richards]

Why is it that people think that we should keep flts to PIT so we can help out commuters ?? If the market does not make money then you pull it regardless of how many people commute on the market. This is a business and we are here to make money. You commute because you choose to. The company has no obligation to commuters .Only to its stock holders. It may sound harsh but its the truth . No major that i know of schedules their flts because of the number of commuters there are between the two cities . They look at the revenue generating capabilities it offers . No revenue ,No flight .Commuters do not generate revenue . Paying passengers do.

This company has never, ever done anything to help commuters..and I am not arguing they are required to by market forces. But that said....

I moved to PIT in 2002 from Atlanta, because management was cutting everything after 911..even the thief Siegel made it clear they expected us to live in base. PIT closed 3 years later. And to follow so did LAS, BOS, and LGA. We do not "commute because we choose to."

As to commuters "not generating revenue" that is management's choice. I can see many scenarios where commuters might just do that.

RR

 

[does this plane go to paris]

Well, SWA is running away from PHL, it appears. Parker said SWA wasn't having much success there and that LCC was really killing them, guess he was right! Bad for commuters, yes; but GOOD for the airline and PHL revenue capabilities.

Markets that Southwest will exit on a nonstop basis are:

Birmingham-Louisville
Boise-Reno/Tahoe
Boise-Salt Lake City
Boise-Seattle/Tacoma
Jacksonville-Philadelphia
Kansas City-Seattle/Tacoma
Manchester-Las Vegas
Manchester-Philadelphia
Philadelphia-Pittsburgh
Philadelphia-Providence
Spokane-Seattle/Tacoma

*Note how they appear to also be abandoning SEA on non stop basis as well? ALK's agressive strategy to protect territory is obviously paying dividends up here as well.

Anyhow, this is clearly a victory for USAirways over the supposedly invincible LUV!! LUV first tried to crush AWA at PHX after 9/11, and AWA mgmt. (read: Parker and Kirby) smartly came up with a pricing strategy to keep LUV at bay. It was a remarkable aviation story, never fully told. LCC owns PHL, SWA can't compete against them at all. They will be running flights through BWI or stopping them completely. Watch for DAL to (attempt at least) to crush them in ATL. I think buying AirTran might have just made things worse for them.

So, in PHL, it's no surprise that LUV's fortunes immediately went south once the US/AWA merger happened. We had the better hand -- US's huge hub operation. You may remember that LUV moved into PHL shortly before this purhase, figuring they could replace US when it died.

So now we have some more great fundamental news today, and yet, the stock (and all airlines) is down?? Whatever

Thought this subject was worth more of a shout out, beyond the commuter issue.
Anyway, let's keep it up US!! h34r:

yvrusfa,

You bring up a few interesting notes in your remarks, it's almost as if you are writing for someone else, which it appears you are on other airline chat boards.

I'm gonna paste the yahoo! chat board today and it quotes:

I previously posted in this thread, but used a word that I guess is modestly "off-color" and seems to have been deleted.

Anyhow, it's another victory for Parker and Kirby over the supposedly invincible LUV. LUV first tried to crush them at PHX when AWA was almost out of money after 9/11, and our Dynamic Duo came up with a pricing strategy to keep LUV at bay. It was a remarkable aviation story, never fully told.

So, in PHL, it's no surprise that LUV's fortunes immediately went south once AWA bought US. Here, Parker and Kirby had the better hand -- US's huge hub operation. You may remember that LUV moved into PHL shortly before this purhase, figuring they could replace US when it died.

So now we have some more great fundamental news today, and the stock is still down! What a crazy market. Someday, it will matter, if we all don't go broke first.

Then we have the comments from sweetflyer2:

SWA is running away from PHL, it appears. DP said SWA wasn't doing much there and LCC was killing them, guess he was right.

Markets that Southwest will exit on a nonstop basis are:
Birmingham-Louisville
Boise-Reno/Tahoe
Boise-Salt Lake City
Boise-Seattle/Tacoma
Jacksonville-Philadelphia
Kansas City-Seattle/Tacoma
Manchester-Las Vegas
Manchester-Philadelphia
Philadelphia-Pittsburgh
Philadelphia-Providence
Spokane-Seattle/Tacoma


It was mentioned on the yahoo! thread and now the remarks are being deleted?

The wording and the language are the same. Its funny that iahphx has tried to command respect and bring only honor thru Doug and Scott via their historical and importance, ie, they are they Dynamic Duo of Doug and Scott and only these two have been in saving the airline from failure and now are profitability. On the other end, the somewhat overbearing, at times vulgar sweetflyer tries to garner respect by stating over and over they are going to be worth a million dollars, if you believe in Doug and Scott and were lucky enough to buy LCC stock as they were. Sweet doesn't need unity at the table or a contract. They have invested millions of dollars into the stock and will soon reap rewards.

I post this only because earlier today, iahphx posted one thing on yahoo! and it was word for word here on airlineforums.com under the name of yvrushp. The second part of the message was posted on yahoo! by sweetflyer2