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Poll: Keep or drop ALPA?

As you know if we drop ALPA and create our own union with US East Alpa pilots, we can prevent the se

  • Keep ALPA

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Drop ALPA

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
The wording said "NO WINDFALLS". Considering that this was one, without a doubt, a judge will have to look at it.
No. You are missing the point of arbitration. Courts will (almost always) not second guess the arbitrator's interpretation of the operative documents (contract, C&B, agreement to arbitrate, etc.). Courts give great deference to the arbitrator's judgment on substantive issues and interpreting such documents. In this way, it is actually harder to appeal an arbitrator's decision than it is to appeal a lower / trial court decision, which can be appealed due to "plain error."

Even if an arbitrator got it "wrong," in your opinion, without something like fraud or a showing that the arbitrator was unduly influenced by one party (i.e., it was PROCEDURALLY unjust or illegal), courts will usually leave it alone, even if one side thinks the decision was SUBSTANTIVELY wrong.
 
There is no chance that the East pilots could force ALPA off the property absent the consent of the West pilots. It simply won't happen. To insinuate it is disingenuous (or really blowing a lot of hot air, one or the other).
 
As you know if we drop ALPA and create our own union with US East Alpa pilots, we can prevent the seniority list from being implimented.


Anything else beyond that?


I have thought a lot about the seniority integration award where at the time of the merger 19-year US Airways First Officers are now junior to 3-month AWA First Officers and about 1,500 furloughees, with as much as 15 years of tenure, have been stapled to the bottom of the seniority list. I believe there is no right mind that thinks this is reasonable.

As more information comes out of the East MEC the pre-merger US Airways pilots have an even stronger position than I first thought. In today’s PIT LEC Update, John Brookman and Rocco Spartano said, “The MEC has charged the Merger Committee with compiling a presentation to be given to Capt. Prater and the Executive Council within the next two weeks. We saw an overview of the highlights on Monday. The committee will not retry the arbitration case with the Executive Council; they will present evidence of the inequities of the award and the detriments to the careers of the US Airways pilots. It is our opinion that the award violates the principals of ALPA merger policy. The MEC believes that the Executive Council has the authority to intervene in this situation.â€

After receiving economic new contract information from the company’s proposal today, the MEC is preparing an even stronger argument to present at the Executive Council meeting because apparently ALPA International’s “Executive Council has the authority to intervene in this (seniority award) situation.â€

In response AWA MEC Vice Chairman Mitch Vasin (with his 3 years of service, which has him senior to 20-year US Airways pilots) wrote in a letter to ALPA President John Prater, “Rather, it is to state, in the strongest possible terms, the AWA MEC’s opposition to that request (for the US Airways MEC make a presentation to ALPA’s Executive Board).â€

Inquiring minds want to know if the AWA pilots were so sure the Arbitrators Opinion & Award was binding then why oppose the US Airways MEC’s request to ALPA International?

Meanwhile, I understand there is another development which could delay the implementation of the Nicolau award for years and years and that is a class action lawsuit. I do not want to comment on this option too much, but it is real and with precedence.

Furthermore, a very well organized group of US Airways pilots have started the process of decertifying ALPA at US Airways, which could lead to the forced and imposed decertification of AWA ALPA.

Nonetheless, the overwhelming majority of US Airways pilots believe if the MEC did nothing the pilot group would be better off. Why? The pilot contract and LOA 93 are not amendable until 2010, the Transition Agreement and EMB-190 Arbitration Award provides East pilots significant benefits, and if the East pilots enter into Section VI negotiations in 2010, it would likely take another 4 years or to 2014 to obtain an agreement. In the meantime the Nicolau Award could not be implemented for 8 or 9 years.

Obviously, the key here is US Airways and AWA pilot attrition. Why? Over 2,500 US Airways pilots and only 500 AWA pilots retire in the next 10 years. If the US Airways pilots do not agree to a combined contract then the US Airways pilots would receive meaningful pay raises as reserves become lineholders, narrowbody pilots become widebody pilots, and First Officers become Captains because the Nicolau Award could not be implemented and there would be nothing the AWA MEC could do to stop this.

Thus, what type of merger pay raises would the AWA pilots receive? None in the near future. Why? Their contract is amendable and the union and company would be required to enter Section VI negotiations. How long did it take the AWA pilots to get a new deal after their last contract was amendable? 4 years!

In the meantime this idea would enable the US Airways pilot’s seniority to improve month after month, while the AWA pilot’s seniority would remain fairly stagnant with no aircraft growth and very little seniority improvement. For example, in July US Airways recalled 130 pilots and for the first six months of this year had 386 recalls. How many AWA pilots were added to the seniority list since the merger? None.

Also noteworthy, the Nicolau award stapled these 386 pilots to the bottom of the seniority list. How do you think these aviators feel and how would they vote on a new contract or ALPA decertification?

Another point that I believe is interesting is that the Transition Agreement minimum fleet count is 80% of each airlines’ pre-merger fleet.

Therefore, with no agreement the US Airways East pilots would have a lower cost contract. Thus, when it comes time to replace aircraft where would it make sense for the company to do this? On the West side where the pilot costs are higher or on the East side where costs are lower? Could one pilot group see a reduction of flying and aircraft because there was no new joint contract and the Transition Agreement would remain in force?

I find it interesting how whip sawing could now become a good thing for the East pilots and can further hurt the West pilots.

With all of this said, do I want to see this pilot war proceed? No, of course not. But, even though my relative seniority improved by the award and I have widebody protections in my favor, I will fight any attempt to implement the Nicolau Award because it is unfair and an AWA pilot windfall. Thus, there needs to be a negotiated solution for the company to move forward.

In my opinion, the solution should be:

Permanent East and West Coast fences where pre-merger US Airways and AWA pilots can only bid their pre-merger bases. This would preserve each pilot groups career expectations.

An equal division of potential A340 flying and any widebody paying aircraft added to the fleet over 63 aircraft, with the America West pilots entitled 13 aircraft and the US Airways pilots 50 aircraft, which were the pre-merger A330, B767, and B757 fleets.

Equal division of EMB-190 flying.

New joint contract scope protections with equal sharing of any future furloughs, East and West minimum fleet counts and block hours.

In conclusion, I believe without some sort of an agreement negotiated like the one discussed above the two pilot groups will go to war and the company will continue its industry worst operating performance.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. If the AWA pilot Section VI negotiations ever went to a 30-day cooling off period and a strike, how many US Airways East pilots would cross the AWA picket line?


Med Check time, Chipster <_<
 
There is no chance that the East pilots could force ALPA off the property absent the consent of the West pilots. It simply won't happen. To insinuate it is disingenuous (or really blowing a lot of hot air, one or the other).
RLA

10. Q: How can employees change their labor organization?

A: Employees can change their labor organization by signing authorization cards for another organization, which then files an application and "wins" an election.

11. Q: How can employees decertify their current representative without getting another one?

A: There is no application for decertification, however if a majority of the craft or class does not vote for representation the current representative will lose its representation rights.

12. Q: Can employees form and elect their own union?

A: Yes, employees can form their own organization if they submit an application supported by a sufficient showing of interest.
 
That is completely false and you are or have been given so really bad information. To do as you suggest would mean that anytime a company didn't like a decision they could just rewrite the contract to suit them. Now that's not to say they don't do this anyway but I think you get the point.

The legal doctrine is called Collateral Estoppel. It's also known as "Issue Preclusion." Once there is a final judgement on the merits, both parties are estopped from relitigating the same issue. In this case, the same issue would be seniority as between East and West. It would not matter that now the East is no longer in ALPA. The NMB would take one look at the arbitration request and say, "We've already done this. Here it is."

There are no legal options available. I was actually wrong the other day; they can't even appeal to the NMB. The only place they can go is to the Federal Courthouse and that will be dismissed before clerk of the court routes the petition to the judge's office. It's DOA. Notice how the tone and rhetoric are changing. I suppose we're well into the gradual decompression process and are now half way back to the surface of reality. We got through the illusion that legal options were available and now we're entering the final phase where the idea of ALPA national will somehow change this award is purged.
 
US Airways (the real, east one) plus Piedmont and PSA should have an independent US Group Pilots Union. I believe AA pilots have thier own, I know AA F/As do (APFA). Every dollar goes to that airlines union and issues.

The only reason the F/As should keep AFA is DOH.
 
"There are no legal options available. I was actually wrong the other day;"...Now; There's a surprise😉 I'm personally not badly stricken, and would keep a left seat even if the arbitrator's list goes into effect. Given that?...I'm fine with anything necessary to prevent this atrocity from taking place.

To all the AWA that are so vehemently striving to convince us of the helpless/hopless/etc nature of our current position:

1) If you think that it's a done deal, and that you've won..Why are you wasting valuable heartbeats trying to convince us that we're helpless here?😉

2) If this award's so "Fair"...why is it that NO/ZERO/ZIP/NADA east pilots are arguing against anything short of full revolution on these boards?
 
The wording said "NO WINDFALLS". Considering that this was one, without a doubt, a judge will have to look at it.

Who recieved a windfall and how?

The east pilots that still have jobs?

The almost 400 furloughees who have been recalled because the airline is still in business?

The 517 east pilots at the top of the list?

The hundreds of other east pilots who now find their position realitive to the entire list of working pilots higher than it was before?

The crews staffing the additional international destination flights begun by the new management team.

I am not sure why everyone is blinded by greed and the past, but both are causing some extremely one sided expectations that are unattainable.

I know, maybe we can build a Latin American hub based in Fort Lauderdale!
 
Maybe we can fly an empty 747 from the desert to Japan.
 
Who recieved a windfall and how?

The east pilots that still have jobs?

The almost 400 furloughees who have been recalled because the airline is still in business?

The 517 east pilots at the top of the list?

The hundreds of other east pilots who now find their position realitive to the entire list of working pilots higher than it was before?

The crews staffing the additional international destination flights begun by the new management team.

I am not sure why everyone is blinded by greed and the past, but both are causing some extremely one sided expectations that are unattainable.

I know, maybe we can build a Latin American hub based in Fort Lauderdale!

You are kidding, right?

While your current FO's were learning to read, the US's current FOs were already flying for US and they are now junior to these snot nosed kids. That seems a bit off, huh Skeeter? I doubt any of those Phoenix boys are going to have to dust off those passports anytime soon. This one is almost worse than being a scab. If you ever fly their trips, you will forever be treated like one.
 
You are kidding, right?

While your current FO's were learning to read, the US's current FOs were already flying for US and they are now junior to these snot nosed kids. That seems a bit off, huh Skeeter? I doubt any of those Phoenix boys are going to have to dust off those passports anytime soon. This one is almost worse than being a scab. If you ever fly their trips, you will forever be treated like one.
Fly, you seem to be advocating a straight DOH merge.

While that is one way to accomplish seniority mergers, ALPA expressly rejected that concept when adopting the current merger language.

So, since straight DOH was not really an option for the arbitrator, and since the arbitrator was obligated to follow the merger language, based on that language, how would YOU like to have seen the award done instead?
 
I bet if US makes their own union, it would be by the FO's that were promised a captain seat long ago, and never saw it. They are the ones that will be pushing to leave ALPA and start their own.
 
You are kidding, right?

While your current FO's were learning to read, the US's current FOs were already flying for US and they are now junior to these snot nosed kids. That seems a bit off, huh Skeeter? I doubt any of those Phoenix boys are going to have to dust off those passports anytime soon. This one is almost worse than being a scab. If you ever fly their trips, you will forever be treated like one.

The current east first officers are situated as good or better in the larger combined list then they were before. They have jobs because of this merger. Can you recognize that fact Scooter?

We are required to carry our passports already. Mine is quite worn actually.

Don't even try to call us scabs! We did not ask for this merger, (most of us)we are just doing our best and maintaining a high level of professionalism during a difficult transition.Some of your east buddies are whining about leaving the union and crossing a picket line if AWA pilots are forced to go section 6. We followed the process in the merger and we are living by the arbitrators ruling. There are just as many inequities, percieved or real, on the AWA side of the list as there are on the east side. Result? Nobody is really happy. The professionals just move forward, those living in the past or in some kind of nether-world, are allowing the decision to really trip them up.
 
The wording said "NO WINDFALLS". Considering that this was one, without a doubt, a judge will have to look at it.

Please explain to me how DOH is not a total windfall?? You have received two winfalls since this thing started!! The first was a pay check and the second was the wide body slots.

You will not right you past stepping on us to get there!!AAA was a failure prior to this purchase!! Yeah it was a purchase because without AWA you would have NOTHING... Air Canada and AWA made this happen and as a result you are employed.

"There are no legal options available. I was actually wrong the other day;"...Now; There's a surprise😉 I'm personally not badly stricken, and would keep a left seat even if the arbitrator's list goes into effect. Given that?...I'm fine with anything necessary to prevent this atrocity from taking place.

To all the AWA that are so vehemently striving to convince us of the helpless/hopless/etc nature of our current position:

1) If you think that it's a done deal, and that you've won..Why are you wasting valuable heartbeats trying to convince us that we're helpless here?😉

2) If this award's so "Fair"...why is it that NO/ZERO/ZIP/NADA east pilots are arguing against anything short of full revolution on these boards?

Hell for the sport of it now :up:


Fly, you seem to be advocating a straight DOH merge.

While that is one way to accomplish seniority mergers, ALPA expressly rejected that concept when adopting the current merger language.

So, since straight DOH was not really an option for the arbitrator, and since the arbitrator was obligated to follow the merger language, based on that language, how would YOU like to have seen the award done instead?

He can't answer that Bear96!! Why?? because for them only the unreasonable is reasonable...
 
As you know if we drop ALPA and create our own union with US East Alpa pilots, we can prevent the seniority list from being implimented.
Wrong, changing unions will not stop the award, arbitrations are precedent setting, if you change unions the award as your CBA will still be in effect.

Maybe you should all take the time and educate yourself.
 
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