(Prediction) AA''s only REAL union, will stand up, and, and say NO !!!!!

[UAL_TECH]

----------------
On 4/8/2003 836 AM AAquila wrote:

----------------
On 4/7/2003 1147 PM UAL_TECH wrote:


​

Here is my UAL (IMHO) prediction.
iam141m - Members vote "NO"!!!
141m Contract is abrogated, all other unions capitulate.

----------------------------------------------------------

My sad prediction: UAL- MAY 1st 2003 liquidation; SARS and heavy debt, no where to turn.

The fat lady is clearing her throat.


----------------

AAquila,

Hope your contingency plan does not rely on this premonition.
I''m not trying to be adversarial as we are ''all'' in deep kimchee.
Just letting my fellow "AMT''s" know how the sitrep @ UAL is going.
IMHO,
Take Care,
UAL_TECH

 

[RV4]

What makes the experts think that the 1113 Term Sheet proposal will be the end result?

Since when does PROPOSAL mean OUTCOME?

 

[Garfield1966]

You people act like having a union is such a good thing and all us unfortunate folks with out one don''t know what we are missing.

Well how about trying out this for size. If your Unions would stop protecting the people who abuse sick time, slack off, and do not care about their job, you could probably save a fortune right there. I have a friend who is a ramper who calls in sick all the time when he is not. I know it and he knows it. He also tells me of all the slow days he has when he has watched 2 or 3 movies during the day.

During the holidays, the sick list for our flight attendants more than doubles. That means that 50% of you are lying and as far as I am concerned, you should be ashamed and unemployed. I guess you folks did not read the part about being open 24/7/365 huh? I have commuter missing their flights left and right because they could not get into base. If you chose not to live where you work, fine ... but if you miss you trip you ought to be canned or given the option to pay back the company what you cost them. There is a FA who is on family leave (for the last 3 years) and it is amazing that for the past 3 years she has been sick for EVERY MAJOR HOLIDAY. Why are you protecting her? Why as a ramper should you get paid a full hour of OT when you only work 10 min of it? You want an hour of OT, THEN WORK AND HOUR OF OT!!!! Why as a flight attendant should you get paid 4.45 for a sequence that only has 2 hours of flying? I work a 160 hours a week and get paid for 160 hrs of work. What is so wrong with that?

Pilots, you people are such freaking premadonas I don’t even know where to begin. How about letting the company record your phone calls into crew scheduling (like we do for the FA’s) so when you call ion sick to crew scheduling and lie about it or get caught in your lie that we can fire your lazy good for nothing ass? Nah, why do that? Then you would actually have to show integrity.

Yes yes, I know there is abuse everywhere in the company, but you guys get away with murder. You have your union to protect your losers. We don’t and I thank god for that everyday. I don’t want to work with people like that. It is much easier to fire me for even minor abuses. And that the way it ought to be. I know what the rules of the game are and either I play by them or I leave.

I have been with AA for nearly half my life and never had union. I have liked my jobs and no one has to hold a stick or a carrot for me to do my work. I am making a fair salary for the work that I do in Crew Scheduling and I would like to continue to do so.

You whiney bastards on the other hand have always got what you wanted. Well, guess what. It’s time to pay the piper. You folks had ample opportunity to save the company money but you chose not too. There is more fat in your contracts and in your union than you know what to do with.

If we go into bankruptcy I hope the courts screw you SOB’s good. I hope they take everything you have and then some. I hope they make you all scream. Your arrogance, stubbornness and stupidity are revolting. Unions? What a joke!

I figure after we clean up your mess then we can start to clean up head quarters.

 

[FA Mikey]

----------------
On 4/8/2003 6:49:44 PM RV4 wrote:


What makes the experts think that the 1113 Term Sheet proposal will be the end result?

Since when does PROPOSAL mean OUTCOME?

----------------​

Well, It will be the TWU that goes to bat for you in BK. Its them against AA, its lawyers, the creditors committees, lien holder, and lessors. All before a judge who''s job is to reorganize the company make able to pay off its debt. They will get cuts in leases, for planes, gates and EQ. They will drop the all the F100 and the TW 757''s right off. Then move in to your CBA. The judge and court will offer AA the breathing room it needs and relief from what ever work rules and pay it sees fit.

It would seem the unions all had a pistol to there heads in the negotiations. In court it will be a bazooka. Kiss your collective CBA''s good-bye.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/8/2003 7:39:55 PM Plane Paper Facts wrote:

So from now on we will have to just follow in line like good little sheep. We won''t dare think of going out on strike because we MIGHT get worse than what the company will offer us. Of course our unions will recommend that we just go along with what the compay offers and maybe next tme we''ll do better. Yes, I know AA is in dire straits but if some day in the future a union on the AA property threatens to strike why would AA even consider giving an inch, the company can simply hold out until they feel it''s time to raise the BK flag again and we go trembling into the corner.

----------------​

No, we wont just go away tail between our legs. We will stand tall and get the contract we deserve. AA under estimated a union on this property once before.

A threat to file BK, is empty unless we are still the dire straights we are currently in.

 

[Plane Paper Facts]

So from now on we will have to just follow in line like good little sheep. We won''t dare think of going out on strike because we MIGHT get worse than what the company will offer us. Of course our unions will recommend that we just go along with what the compay offers and maybe next tme we''ll do better. Yes, I know AA is in dire straits but if some day in the future a union on the AA property threatens to strike why would AA even consider giving an inch, the company can simply hold out until they feel it''s time to raise the BK flag again and we go trembling into the corner.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/8/2003 727 PM Garfield1966 wrote:

You people act like having a union is such a good thing and all us unfortunate folks with out one don''t know what we are missing.

Well how about trying out this for size. If your Unions would stop protecting the people who abuse sick time, slack off, and do not care about their job, you could probably save a fortune right there. I have a friend who is a ramper who calls in sick all the time when he is not. I know it and he knows it. He also tells me of all the slow days he has when he has watched 2 or 3 movies during the day.
----------------​

Wow thats a boring day to have to around that long. But remember, the unions dont schedule the employees. You guys do.

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On 4/8/2003 727 PM Garfield1966 wrote:

During the holidays, the sick list for our flight attendants more than doubles. That means that 50% of you are lying and as far as I am concerned, you should be ashamed and unemployed. I guess you folks did not read the part about being open 24/7/365 huh? I have commuter missing their flights left and right because they could not get into base. If you chose not to live where you work, fine ... but if you miss you trip you ought to be canned or given the option to pay back the company what you cost them. There is a FA who is on family leave (for the last 3 years) and it is amazing that for the past 3 years she has been sick for EVERY MAJOR HOLIDAY. Why are you protecting her? Why as a ramper should you get paid a full hour of OT when you only work 10 min of it? You want an hour of OT, THEN WORK AND HOUR OF OT!!!! Why as a flight attendant should you get paid 4.45 for a sequence that only has 2 hours of flying? I work a 160 hours a week and get paid for 160 hrs of work. What is so wrong with that?
----------------​

Its just your guess, that 50% of us are lying. Commuters who miss trips or get missed assignments. Do get in to trouble. Its no small thing. If someone is abusing FMLA, management needs to investigate. Its not the unions job to bring members up for discipline.

A ramper will get 1 hour pay for 10 mins work Its called a penalty hour. When a manager keeps you past quitting time, you are instilled to be paid. Its a deterrent, a unions way to keep managers from keeping employees for little or no reason. The company can keep the employee for the full hour if it so desires. So the waste really is from the manager who keeps some over for 10 mins then lets them leave.

You are very dedicated to work 160 hours a week. I am sure you probably wanted to say a month though. I get a 4.45 because AA chose''s to only work me for a 2 hour flight then leave me stuck some where. We want to work more in a day. The more we work in a day in a two or three day trip. The more days off we get. Again APFA does not schedule the flight attendants you guys do.

 

[FA Mikey]

----------------
On 4/8/2003 727 PM Garfield1966 wrote:

Pilots, you people are such freaking premadonas I don’t even know where to begin. How about letting the company record your phone calls into crew scheduling (like we do for the FA’s) so when you call ion sick to crew scheduling and lie about it or get caught in your lie that we can fire your lazy good for nothing ass? Nah, why do that? Then you would actually have to show integrity.
----------------​

You absolutely must be the person who took my last sick call. The scheduler was so rude and pissed. They took it as something against them personally. Jeez, sorry I was just sick. Is that what they do now, use some sort of software that can tell by my voice if I was sick enough. Maybe next time I should sneeze of cough in to the line for effect.

----------------
On 4/8/2003 727 PM Garfield1966 wrote:
Yes yes, I know there is abuse everywhere in the company, but you guys get away with murder. You have your union to protect your losers. We don’t and I thank god for that everyday. I don’t want to work with people like that. It is much easier to fire me for even minor abuses. And that the way it ought to be. I know what the rules of the game are and either I play by them or I leave.
----------------​

You mean know who''s but to kiss where and when to protect your job and position. Unions dont try to protect bad employees. They fight to protect the integrity of the contract and its language. People who are fired and get there jobs back, and really dont deserve to. Are a product of a management team who dont know how to fire someone by procedure and for just cause.

----------------
On 4/8/2003 727 PM Garfield1966 wrote:

I have been with AA for nearly half my life and never had union. I have liked my jobs and no one has to hold a stick or a carrot for me to do my work. I am making a fair salary for the work that I do in Crew Scheduling and I would like to continue to do so.

You whiney bastards on the other hand have always got what you wanted. Well, guess what. It’s time to pay the piper. You folks had ample opportunity to save the company money but you chose not too. There is more fat in your contracts and in your union than you know what to do with.
----------------​

Sorry, scheduling will waste over a million dollars in Miami by there poor scheduling. It is not due to work rules or anything other than POOR planning and scheduling. And thats just at my base.

----------------
On 4/8/2003 727 PM Garfield1966 wrote:
If we go into bankruptcy I hope the courts screw you SOB’s good. I hope they take everything you have and then some. I hope they make you all scream. Your arrogance, stubbornness and stupidity are revolting. Unions? What a joke!

I figure after we clean up your mess then we can start to clean up head quarters.
----------------​

You are a very bitter individual. You have a lot of hate towards every single person at AA. Makes me wonder how coming to work can be anything other than a horror for you.

 

[Plane Paper Facts]

Mikey you say:

No, we wont just go away tail between our legs. We will stand tall and get the contract we deserve.

I hope you are right but I don''t know if I want to wait long enough for that. I may be an old man before we are appreciated and compensated properly for what we do.

 

[boresight]

AAviator, the TWU fails to be a Union by its lack of fair and even representation of all work groups. The TWU leadership is only worried about the all mighty dollar, the one I pay to them in dues. We should have had a 20% layoff (at least) straight across the board. However, the TWU will allow a deep and vast concessionaire contract over an extremely long period to keep the head count up.

Even after a 17.5% cut (for Mechanics), the Union (?) will continue to draw more in dues money than if the head count was reduced to support the workload. Lay off''s are a part of the industry cycle. I would rather be laid off and come back at good wages than have to fight for ground we have already taken. Perhaps our Union leadership was behind planning and controlling the Vietnam War???

We are at or beyond the bottom right now. Are we hurting as a compAAny? Yes. Should we allow the Union to sacrifice one work group to appease another? No, the Union should maintain all flow-through items alike between all eight work groups. They failed, as usual. The Mechanic and Related group would be best served, now and in the future, by either: 1) creating our own union or 2) joining a union that does not have the AFL-CIO "raid clause", that is specially designed to promote the assets, abilities and qualities unique to only our work group.

T/A or BK, either way we (all work groups at AA) will feel pain. The M&R have been feeling the pain of long coat tails and sell outs for entirely to long, thanks to the TWU. Vote your conscience on the T/A and be proactive on who will truly represent our work group best, now and in the future.

 

[flydcoop]

NHBB,

I am a hardcore APFA member and I am voting Yes.

It is very mixed in the F/A corp right now. It''s troubling to me that many seem to be so ill-informed.

George Price from the APFA sent out an amazing email called "Rumor Control" that said it more to the point than I could.

Just b/c I''m voting "Yes" doesn''t mean I like it...

If you have seen the concessions vs. what AA will go after in BK, EEK! I''m choosing the lesser of the 2 evils.

I do not believe AA is bluffing as they usually are. I believe BK is probably imminent and Mikey is right, it will look better to have said "Yes" and made the effort.

I had a UA jumpseat on the other day and asked him for his experience. He said that their unions can be present for the talks between the BK judge, company, and creditors but they have NO input whatsoever. Seen but not heard, if you will.

These are not negotiations. If there is a "NO" vote, AA will not say, "Hey, maybe they''ll pass it if we drop it to 3 years"...We simply do not have that kind of time. It''s one or the other (T/A concessions or BK concessions).

All 3 of our unions hired financial analysts, BK experts, lawyers, et al. and were given access to the books. All 3 came to the same conclusions independently and jointly.

I don''t know about the TWU but to accuse the APA and APFA of "selling out" to AA (as many are saying) is the most asinine thing I''ve ever heard. This is EXTORTION, pure and simple. Unfortunately, we currently don''t have the bargaining power to make a stand at this time. 2009 IS a long time but if there is a turnaround, imagine how ticked we''ll be by then. F/As CERTAINLY don''t forget, most have mentally stored the scAAb list from 10yrs ago.

As far as the F/As go, many know very little about departments outside of Flight Service. They are in denial about how very awful things are right now.

I urge them to start talking to agents. Just b/c the airplane is full, doesn''t mean we are making money. Educate yourselves about the fares and bookings of flights other than your own.

I used to be a MIA gate agent for South America during the glory days. I saw the bookings and fares tonight and my blood CHILLED! If you see this and understand that future bookings are down even more b/c of Iraq, the ramifications are quite evident.

Before South America''s economic downturn, an average coach ticket was $1,000 and there wasn''t a single open seat. Tonight, the only SA destination with a Coach booking over 100 (for WIDEBODIES) was SCL. You can buy a round-trip ticket to Buenos Aires for $300+ roundtrip...and future bookings are down??? We are in big, fat, hairy trouble.

Now we must sacrifice. Yes, we are having to pay for Management''s mistakes, it is not fair at all. If you vote "NO" to get back at Senior MGMT, it won''t affect them at all. They have their parachutes. I imagine Lorenzo did quite well in the liquidation of Eastern. Let''s face it, we have some valuable routes. Their monetary value is not inextricably linked to AA actually flying them.

There has been a big beef about "giving" up furlough pay. I WILL be furloughed through either vote, I just want to come back. If it becomes a BK concession, I may have to seriously reconsider my career choice and that tears me to pieces...I love what I do.

$6 million may seem like a "drop in the bucket" of the $330mil+ concessions, but how many F/As does that keep on the line? They keeps me that much closer to being recalled. I have my plan...I will wait tables and make more than I am making now and hope to be called back ASAP to the job I love.

I left a level 2 management job and took a $10,000/yr paycut to transfer to a position where I love coming to work everyday. I''ve never regretted it.

This is where I address Mr. Garfield. I have been a level 2, as you probably are, and much prefer having an unbiased Union contract to the completely subjective favoritism I experienced in management. Your perspective of the "dark side" of union representation is equally mirrored in the management group. We just don''t have to play the BS game as you do. That''s why I made my choice. I can tell you horror stories! I went to work with my stomach in knots every day b/c mediocrity rules in management. When the layoffs hit in MIA, they took out the best and brightest, i.e. those that may make their MGR look like an incompetent ass (which they usually are, MGRs do have beautifully puckered brown lips though).

I urge you, Mr. Garfield, to non-rev somewhere and try being pleasant, you''d be amazed at what our F/As are capable of. Keep up these types of postings and I may have to nickname you "Chip" due to the one clinging to your shoulder.

I think you blast our workgroup quite unfairly as you are mostly going to be dealing with the bad apples on the phone. Unless, there is an MIC, you will never deal with the ones who never call in sick or late, or have misstrips.

Remember this street runs both ways. I believe a particular someone in Crew Sked has it in for me b/c I legitimally had a misstrip overturned by my FSM. My FSM is not my friend either. I had all the proof on my pager and cell phone.

Crew Sked tends to be dogmatically rigid and part of the problem is our contract, I can accept that. Most of Crew Sked has never worked in an airport and are clearly out of touch with airport layouts. When I''ve been resked, they''ve wanted me to get from DFW
C39 to B4 in 5 mins. If you spent anytime at DFW, you would know that most crews avoid the "Bullet TrAAin" like the plague. A horse and buggy goes faster. It is prone to just stop for no apparent reason or there will be a fire alarm or security breach.

I want to work for a company with a truly innovative and brilliant management team...not this "emperor wears no clothes" crap that I''ve seen.

Just b/c I vote "yes" doesn''t mean I''m going to ease up on MGMT inefficency and waste. I may be deflated but I am not defeated. I know where my anger needs to be directed. My job is to keep paxs coming back (ESPECIALLY PLTs). I do this every time I step on a plane.

Let''s face it, front-line staffing is a bare-minimum, look at the lines when we are busy. Other than concessions, you can only cut frequencies/scheduling (necessary in this time of over-capacity). I''ve said it before and it''s still a pet peeve, level 4 MGRS.

I would only vote "No" if I knew for a fact that an outside consulting firm (independent of the board and the "I''ll take care of you" network) were going to come in and honestly assess all middle management and their role in efficiency and profitability. ex. BMAS, useless. The same problems in my AA experience 7-1/2yrs later. What''s the point of pretty charts and graphs and worthless weekly meetings? It''s not fixed, it''s not working, accept it and move on.

For those of you out of the know, BMAS is a bag mishandling analytical dept. A blame dept. Usually boils down to not enough FSCs, don''t man for sick time, manning is off but we choose to err on the side of budgetary constraints. If we are going to ignore the analysis, why should the dept. continue to exist?

F/A Mikey, thank-you for your levity on these boards. Maybe I come across as "bitchy", I hope not.

To me, you look for sources and I think you always hit the nail on the head. I hope to meet you one day. If things had stayed the way they were in 1999/early 2000, I would be a Caribbean Purser by now. I''m lucky to still be working, forget my dream of MIA INTL. Even with the nasty cuts, I still want to be a Purser. I have a great rapport with the other work groups in MIA and I know what it takes to get things done (not to mention the respect and phone numbers!). Money! Sweet-talk! HA-HA!

All I''m saying is, neither you nor I have any love for MGMT but we know how to choose our battles. If an F/A votes "NO" as 4 did on my A300 domestic trip. I will not judge them as long as they are informed. I respected 1, possibly 2, for voting "NO". The other 2 were totally emotional and had no concept of our current reality.

When I said I was voting "Yes", they said it was b/c I was junior.




Perhaps I''m arrogant but I think 4 depts in 7-1/2yrs qualifies me more than 17yrs now PT in one dept.

Sorry, some can''t see the forest for the trees.

Art Tang, please comment. I respect you implicitly, as do others.

That''s my ranting and raving for tonight!

Good luck to us all,

Coop

 

[NAPAUS]

WOW! Bravo! Bravisimo!! Just wanted to say thank you for putting it out there realistically and right to the point. I dont work for AA, ive been at US inflight for over 22 years. I do have two family memmbers who''ve been at AA for over 25 years and countless AA friends. I can tell u that emotions are high EVERYWHERE...every airline employee is suffering and is "OVER" mgmts attitude and corporate greed BK was fairly painless, so it seemed, at US...HOWEVER NOW the proverbial sh-t has hit the fan. They are taking every opportunity to use the filing as a way to RAPE US. Im sure u can only imagine min staffing EVERY where...inflight services cuts., etc..and more threats weekly... So if u can avoid BK do it... SAVE THE FIGHT FOR ANOTHER DAY. Personally i think all the airlines should be in one UNION, with multiple layers for each dept. Maye something like AIRLINE UNIONS OF AMERICA.. AUA...our power in numbers would give us strength and clout with congress..and put fear in mgmt. just food for thought. Good luck waiting tables, sounds like u''ll be ONE hell of a waiter. Dont worry, you''ll be back..This too shall pass. Believe me i started my flying career with Pan Am in 1978 and have seen lots of downturns..Hang in there..be well and best of luck to all at AA....Ciao..Jake

 

[ArtTang]

Coop,
Brilliant and heartfelt. You said it, baby! I have posted ad nauseam on the 4M about my view on this TA so I won''t go there on this bulletin board. Suffice it to say you & I may disagree about the TA, but I wholly respect your opinion and I do not reproach any employee for his/her vote as long as the person casts an informed vote. Clearly, we are not all going to agree on this issue.
I am waiting until the last minute to vote as I want to study everything and have a clear head. I would advise everyone to do the same because once the vote is cast, it cannot be changed.
Best of luck to us all,
Art

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/9/2003 2:44:43 AM flydcoop wrote:

F/A Mikey, thank-you for your levity on these boards. Maybe I come across as "bitchy", I hope not.

----------------​

Not at all. Very well put.

----------------
On 4/9/2003 2:44:43 AM flydcoop wrote:

For those of you out of the know, BMAS is a bag mishandling analytical dept. A blame dept. Usually boils down to not enough FSCs, don''t man for sick time, manning is off but we choose to err on the side of budgetary constraints. If we are going to ignore the analysis, why should the dept. continue to exist?

----------------​

Agreed. I worked for a while DFW BMAS.

 

[flydcoop]

Art,

I too am still gathering as much info before voting though I''m 90% Yes.

Taking my blood-pressure medicine and heading to the 4M now