Question Bob Owens

[BoeingBoy]

Question: Can my hourly pay be cut drastically in the short (weeks) negotiations, or is that a stage two negotiation?

Yes it can. With NW, ours was cut 17.5% IIRC, on an interim basis. The longer term cut was 11.5%.

As Kev said, yes and with really no negotiations since the 1113(e) is for temporary changes. As I recall, in BK II US filed it's 1113(e) motion within 2 weeks of filing the bankruptcy petition and the Judge held the hearing and approved it a week or so later. With so much going on in the early stages of bankruptcy, there was really no negotiating during that period, although negotiations had been going on for 6 months or so prior to filing - concession negotiations, not normal section 6 negotiations. So US could tell the judge that X months of negotiations hadn't produced the savings necessary and it needed the temporary reductions to keep operating.

The one thing that AA has that US didn't is money - $4.1 billion in effectively cash. US was down to under $1 billion and burning through that fairly quickly. With things like credit card agreements requiring nearly that much be kept on hand, US was in a hurry to slow/stop the cash drain. Whether that will make a difference with the negotiations or Judge is something I don't know.

Jim

 

[Bob Owens]

Yup. Someone is in serious denial.

Really? Horton said it himself, this move is strategic, it's not a crisis. All AA had to do was stop spending money on things that were not critical, such as repainting all the baggage carts, landscaping in front of the hangars, new furniture and appliances in all the break rooms, pajamas for first class, lending JAL a billion, building taj Mahals across the country, ripping up tile floors and replacing them with the most expensive flooring out there, tablets for mechanics etc etc etc. The bankruptcy itself is just the final move in a long strategy, not everything worked as planned, they had expected the employees to give in first with end loaded contracts with up front concessions, then file so they could dump their underwater leases, then try and get a second bite at the apple with labor.

If all the workgroups would have agreed to concessions three Yeats ago AAWould have filed before the ink on the last agreement was dry. This way , in addition to attempting a second bite they could get out of paying for facilities it doesn't use and planes it doesn't fly.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh no, Your not alone....I was like WTF did he just say? Perhaps we should get Tom Hanks to narrate an altered script from the movie Apollo 13.

"Kennedy we have a problem"

If they try and take anything you can be pretty sure that not only will Kennedy have a problem but so will Logan, LaGuardia, Miami, Dallas etc etc.

Enough is enough!

 

[737823]

Really? Horton said it himself, this move is strategic, it's not a crisis. All AA had to do was stop spending money on things that were not critical, such as repainting all the baggage carts, landscaping in front of the hangars, new furniture and appliances in all the break rooms, pajamas for first class, lending JAL a billion, building taj Mahals across the country, ripping up tile floors and replacing them with the most expensive flooring out there, tablets for mechanics etc etc etc. The bankruptcy itself is just the final move in a long strategy, not everything worked as planned, they had expected the employees to give in first with end loaded contracts with up front concessions, then file so they could dump their underwater leases, then try and get a second bite at the apple with labor.

If all the workgroups would have agreed to concessions three Yeats ago AAWould have filed before the ink on the last agreement was dry. This way , in addition to attempting a second bite they could get out of paying for facilities it doesn't use and planes it doesn't fly.

You left out new stanchions and LCD monitors at BOS

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

As Kev said, yes and with really no negotiations since the 1113(e) is for temporary changes. As I recall, in BK II US filed it's 1113(e) motion within 2 weeks of filing the bankruptcy petition and the Judge held the hearing and approved it a week or so later. With so much going on in the early stages of bankruptcy, there was really no negotiating during that period, although negotiations had been going on for 6 months or so prior to filing - concession negotiations, not normal section 6 negotiations. So US could tell the judge that X months of negotiations hadn't produced the savings necessary and it needed the temporary reductions to keep operating.

The one thing that AA has that US didn't is money - $4.1 billion in effectively cash. US was down to under $1 billion and burning through that fairly quickly. With things like credit card agreements requiring nearly that much be kept on hand, US was in a hurry to slow/stop the cash drain. Whether that will make a difference with the negotiations or Judge is something I don't know.

Jim

The law provides temporary cuts which as noted can be deeper than the "permanent cuts"... each person should be prepared for fairly deep cuts but you might actually prefer deeper short-term cuts while the case can be made that the size of long term cuts doesn't need to be as large as the company is asking for. I believe the APA is positioning itself for this line of strategy - and given that scope changes can't really be initiated on a short term, temporary basis but long term scope changes completely affect the viability of a pilot career, AA people might prefer to have deeper short term cuts in salary only and then argue for scope provisions, esp. as if with the pilots, AA is asking for scope changes such as unlimited domestic codesharing and a permanent B scale on a mainline aircraft type which doesn't exist elsewhere.

Bob,
you can be glad that there aren't laws that hold you responsible for the decisions the TWU is making (yes, I know there are "some" legal accountability checks for union leadership), your lack of understanding of the process, and the effect those decisions will have on the people who pay dues. Any other organization that had "leaders" who were as detached as you are would face financial consequences.
The "wow" comes from the impact your "leadership" has on the lives of so many people who foolishly put their faith in the TWU.

 

[Overspeed]

The law provides temporary cuts which as noted can be deeper than the "permanent cuts"... each person should be prepared for fairly deep cuts but you might actually prefer deeper short-term cuts while the case can be made that the size of long term cuts doesn't need to be as large as the company is asking for. I believe the APA is positioning itself for this line of strategy - and given that scope changes can't really be initiated on a short term, temporary basis but long term scope changes completely affect the viability of a pilot career, AA people might prefer to have deeper short term cuts in salary only and then argue for scope provisions, esp. as if with the pilots, AA is asking for scope changes such as unlimited domestic codesharing and a permanent B scale on a mainline aircraft type which doesn't exist elsewhere.

Bob,
you can be glad that there aren't laws that hold you responsible for the decisions the TWU is making (yes, I know there are "some" legal accountability checks for union leadership), your lack of understanding of the process, and the effect those decisions will have on the people who pay dues. Any other organization that had "leaders" who were as detached as you are would face financial consequences.
The "wow" comes from the impact your "leadership" has on the lives of so many people who foolishly put their faith in the TWU.

That's the problem with politics, the local union officials have elections that resemble one for student council. They promise everything (free ice cream and no homework) just to get elected.

 

[Overspeed]

If they try and take anything you can be pretty sure that not only will Kennedy have a problem but so will Logan, LaGuardia, Miami, Dallas etc etc.

Enough is enough!

That's what Horton and the BOD said Bob. Enough is enough. You went all-in on a pair of twos. Nice.

 

[Duke787]

Really? Horton said it himself, this move is strategic, it's not a crisis. All AA had to do was stop spending money on things that were not critical, such as repainting all the baggage carts, landscaping in front of the hangars, new furniture and appliances in all the break rooms, pajamas for first class, lending JAL a billion, building taj Mahals across the country, ripping up tile floors and replacing them with the most expensive flooring out there, tablets for mechanics etc etc etc. The bankruptcy itself is just the final move in a long strategy, not everything worked as planned, they had expected the employees to give in first with end loaded contracts with up front concessions, then file so they could dump their underwater leases, then try and get a second bite at the apple with labor.

If all the workgroups would have agreed to concessions three Yeats ago AAWould have filed before the ink on the last agreement was dry. This way , in addition to attempting a second bite they could get out of paying for facilities it doesn't use and planes it doesn't fly.

AA is in bankruptcy, and Bob is still spewing his rhetoric, I can't believe he is negotiating our contract. I think we need Jim Little to save us from Owens.

Yes I know Little wasn't elected by us, but only NY elected Bob.

 

[Hopeful]

AA is in bankruptcy, and Bob is still spewing his rhetoric, I can't believe he is negotiating our contract. I think we need Jim Little to save us from Owens.

Yes I know Little wasn't elected by us, but only NY elected Bob.

Yes, and there is the feeling amongst the members i work with every day is that they have grown tired of this rhethoric. He wants us to believe, and I know his intent is all good, that we will fare better in BK court....As soon as my pension is either frozen or terminated...NO GOOD WILL HAVE COME FROM BK!

 

[FWAAA]

Really? Horton said it himself, this move is strategic, it's not a crisis.

Of course it's not a crisis. What else would you expect the new CEO to tell the public on his first day on the job when his employer has filed a petition in banktruptcy court? Obviously he's attempting to reassure everyone who might be wary of buying tickets on the only large bankrupt airline right now. If panic sets in, say goodbye to that $24 billion of revenue next year.

All AA had to do was stop spending money on things that were not critical, such as repainting all the baggage carts, landscaping in front of the hangars, new furniture and appliances in all the break rooms, pajamas for first class, lending JAL a billion, building taj Mahals across the country, ripping up tile floors and replacing them with the most expensive flooring out there, tablets for mechanics etc etc etc.

It's funny how you, with your limited financial acumen, are the only person banging the "it's not lagging revenue growth and excessive labor costs and high fuel prices that's causing AA's financial problems, it's every other management decision" drum.

About specifics: Painting carts? That might extend their service life, no? Do you ever paint your house? Same concept. Landscaping? Dunno how much they spent but unlikely to have contributed to any meaningful portion of this year's expected loss of at least $1.2 billion. New furniture and appliances in break rooms? If they hadn't spent that money, someone would have filed a grievance. Pajamas for international first class? That drives revenue, as all competitors (plus alliance partners) do the same. Negligible expense. Might as well complain that premium passengers get free alcohol.

Lending JAL a billion? Didn't happen. And even if it had, it would not have contributed to a net loss. Building new terminals? You got me there. No doubt revenue would be just as high if AA had not built the new JFK terminal or the remodel of the LAX terminal or the new MIA terminal complex. And the increased rent must be why AA will lose over a billion dollars this year. Yes, that's the reason. New flooring? Where is this magical new expensive floor? Tablets for mechanics? Now there's a worthless expense - some technology to help you do your job. At several hundred dollars per mechanic, that's no doubt why AA is losing over a billion dollars.

No, it's not crisis, but the concessions will look the same.

 

[Mr Red]

That's the problem with politics, the local union officials have elections that resemble one for student council. They promise everything (free ice cream and no homework) just to get elected.

YOU dont get it, Bob O speaks for a majority that voted NO !!!NO MORE GIVE BACKS PERIOD !!!they want it, they can take it.The good Mechanics can have a new job tomorrow if they choose to move on.
they offer an early out ,I'll be first in line and i don't think I'll be alone !!

 

[FWAAA]

Bob Owens recently posted that a lot of senior mechanics would leave as soon as they got their large retro checks; so now that retro is probably not among the possible outcomes, will they stay or go?

 

[Frank Szabo]

AA is in bankruptcy, and Bob is still spewing his rhetoric, I can't believe he is negotiating our contract. I think we need Jim Little to save us from Owens.

Yes I know Little wasn't elected by us, but only NY elected Bob.

The mighty twu will negotiate for the maximun number of jobs for dues income purposes which translates to the lowest pay and benefit structure for the poor bastards (that's us) falling under its representation. Even those with low seniority shouldn't applaud that as even though they'll probably get laid off for a time they'll only have a low paying job to return to. The way to fix that is to remove the twu as they'll only fight for the international's best interest.

No - I haven't forgotten what a non-union shop is like. Aside from actually being expected to do one's job for at least a few hours per day, a person has to be relatively nice to the buttholes placed in "management" instead of telling them to #### off.

As it is, however, we're all going to be getting screwed to one degree or another. The difference is the company would have been pleased to do it for free but we get to pay $40 - $50 per month just to partake of the otherwise free horse ####.

 

[TWU informer]

Bob Owens recently posted that a lot of senior mechanics would leave as soon as they got their large retro checks; so now that retro is probably not among the possible outcomes, will they stay or go?

That probably depends on if the stratgey on either side leads to scorched earth policy or are we going to reach agreements outside of court?

The more P.R. manipulation I read the more angry I become about this. I still have some compassion and understanding about where we are all at, but the media manipulation blitz that is happening without concise direction from the leadship on either side is making that compassion and understanding weaker by the hour. FURP could erupt into FUAA

What is really interesting is watching the three amigo paid bloggers post one after the other on this bulletin board in attempts to sway opinion.

 

[eolesen]

What is really interesting is watching the three amigo paid bloggers post one after the other on this bulletin board in attempts to sway opinion.

OK, Dave. You've made that claim twice today.

Accusing people of being paid to post here is just about as specious as calling every judge or arbitrator who rules against you as being crooked.

Prove your case, or shut up already.