Question For 407d

[MagSeal]

Question ONLY for 407D....(as long as he's still here and hasn't left for calmer discussion grounds 😀 )

I read something today, (and there weren't any pictures, so I'm proud of myself). I just wanted to know if your 407 can land at 20000' with two pilots, 150KG payload and enough fuel to continue for another 30 minutes?

And if anyone else answers....thats it...I'm going to tell Kyle.

 

[widgeon]

You planning an expedition to Mount Logan then ?

 

[cyclic monkey]

Well, that's one way to keep the discussions calm.............by limiting who is allowed to answer your questions.

Maybe we should have a Bad Boys Club that consists of a few guys that aren't allowed to answer to anything. We have a couple of guys that have been here less than a month and have already had there typing fingers smacked. I love this stuff.

Maggie, I hope there is some really juicy gossip coming out of this topic, otherwise you should keep it to a PM and not tease us sick bastiges that are bored and looking for some rumours......especially if it involves the wise and curly master.

 

[Nomex]

Going to hijack your topic Magseal for an Astar question - for anyone with an answer - on a B3 with auto pilot engaged, if you lose hydraulics (hate to bring up the topic again, but), can the autopilot handle the forces? The scenario would be one in which the hydraulics are lost without warning and without having assistance of the accumulators - such as the hydraulic switch malfunctioning - the collective in button reseting but tripping off, which has happened in the past or even the toggle switch being knocked to the off position by mistake etc....

Just wondering what the auto-pilot could handle.

 

[widgeon]

I don't think that any AP ( fixed or rotary ) will work without hydraulics , I guess that is why all IFR machines have dual hydraulics. I would think typically the average AP servo can give only a few pounds of effort ( also a safety feature is you need to be able to override it ) , whereas the hyd servo's give out the several hundred pounds of effort required to overcome aerodynamic loads.
Mag , what are the actual figures of the force for an AS350 servo.



http://www.eurosafetyinternational.com/as-...t-6-page-29.htm

 

[MagSeal]

Kyyyllllle!

They didn't follow my rules!!! :angry:

Can you punish them all? I suggest a 3 week suspension to start.

Widgeon, I will ask our Samm servo guy if there is anything specifically in the manual on actual forces. I don't want to get into something that may be incorrect.

And since 407D hasn't responded with-in the 9.145 hrs allowed, I'll tell you that the B3 has managed the feat across the pond. They were actually brave enough to shut down for 30 minutes and enjoy the lack of oxygen for a bit.
I think it's impressive, but then again, I've been riding my motorcycle for the last three days, and the freezing tempuratures may have done some semi-permanent damage. :blink:

 

[Nomex]

Sorry for hijacking the topic Magseal & thanks for the insight Widgeon - also what a great website link and Astar hydraulics summary. tx

 

[CTD]

That is impressive - do you know what tthe temperature was?

Alain Rousseau from Bell Mirabel landed a 206L4 at 22000 Hd (give or take a few feet) to rescue the crew of a crashed Pakistan Air Force Lama. There were three in the Lama, and two already in the L4, so that made 5 on board leaving the site, with 350 lbs of fuel. They shut down for a while as well, so Mr R could take pictures.

A friend of mine, who has since passed away, flew a 407 on heliskiing operations in India at altitudes up to 17000.

I think they're all nuts.

 

[Blackmac]

There is a gentleman in Haines Junction, Yukon who flies a 206B3 with a C20R regulary to 15,000 + ft over the St. Elias mountains.

Any takers.

 

[MagSeal]

Widgeon, the Samm book says that at 40 bar, the servo force is 184 daN. Hope thats what you were looking for.

 

[skullcap]

I believe the Lama did a lift off top of Mckinley(I believe was Mr Jim Hood?) and Cheetahs(Lama) work regularly +20,000 feet along Pakistani and Indian border and have been waging war over bounderary there for around 20 years utilizing these ships for troop movers.

Have seen the photo of the highly modified L4 picking up the folks at the lama roll over sight. Look up,,,,,way up. Why did Bell not go further with this rotor system, CTD?

Mr Jim Davies did land and takeoff with 2 passengers in a 47(turbocharged not turbine) at 17000 feet in 70's in Canada.

Ron Elan did an impressive amount of high altitude rescues with Allouette 3 in Yukon. Not sure his records though, a very interesting and entertaining man to visit.

The B3 is impressive though, still behind the lama at HIGH altitude.

I believe one of the most impressive was the pilot who did an auto to high altitude(14000 pinnacle) with 47 in the Yukon years ago. They were on short final and things went silent. I heard they had to freeze the skid gear down to keep the wind from blowing it away over night. They dug snowcave. I believe a Chinook slung her off the mountain. I his name was Green, but am sure, some of the more senior fellas may know and fill in the names or incorrections. Would be nice if they did, was a cool story, knowing my memory it was a hiller on hill by wrigley(3500')with a bad plug but am pretty sure........

sc

 

[widgeon]

184 Dan , sounds more like a Karate belt LOL.
http://www.lorenz-messtechnik.de/umrechke.htm
= 415 lbs approx .

Think the AP electro mechanical pitch and roll actuators would be hard pressed to give that kind of force.

Thanks for the info

 

[CTD]

Have seen the photo of the highly modified L4 picking up the folks at the lama roll over sight. Look up,,,,,way up. Why did Bell not go further with this rotor system, CTD?

It wasn't 'highly modified', it just had blades with a slightly larger chord. You're right - Bell didn't go with them for production, and I suspect (I certainly wasn't involved in those decisions) that it had to do with higher aerodynamic forces hydraulics-off, which would have required a second hydraulic system, completely negating the advantage of the fat blades.

The 407 has difficulty up there for sure, and in their wisdom, Bell sent the afore-mentioned Mr Rousseau back to Pakistan with a 407 demo machine that was very, very heavy. Cementing their stupidity, in my mind, as they sent me to do a bucketing demo in a corporate ship that weighed 3300 lbs, when a utility machine tips the scales at about 2800. There may be a plan in the works to send another ship to India to complete the high-alt tests, and get some realistic data for the 407.

A B3 has sucessfully duplicated the rescue conditions set by the L4, and bravo for them. Anybody that plays around in tbose altitudes has my respect.

 

[407 Driver]

MAG, just arrived back in North America after a week + away. All that I can say is that a 407 could probably do it with ONLY one pilot ! Why did the B3 need 2 on board ??? 😀 😀 😀

Actually, I've never worked a 407 above 12,000, since that's all we have for hills around here. I was running the full 7 seats plus gear and 1.0 hour of fuel at 11,550 last summer (+5C ) without too much effort. I'd venture to guess that anything above 15,000 should be left to the B3 though.....bet you never expected me so say that ...did Ya?

 

[MagSeal]

I was actually expecting you to say you bought property in Hawaii and we're never coming back. I was truly afraid you left us all behind to bicker/slander each other alone.

It's good to see you're back. We missed you.

Group hug???