Seatacus
Veteran
I suppose you think they all lived in perfect harmony with everyone and were never at war with anyone.
Racisists and Hypocrits
- Thread starter joanne
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I suppose you think they all lived in perfect harmony with everyone and were never at war with anyone.
Garfield1966
Veteran
I believe the concept of AA is far different than the resulting application of AA. The way I read AA is that the original idea was simply that you cannot just hire one race (whites) because you want too. You need to actively seek qualified persons of other races and have a certain percentage in the employee ranks. The argument being is that you cannot turn down a qualified applicant because of race, not that you need to hire unqualified applicants because of race. The CT fire fighter spectacle would fall under the latter.
If only all people had the same opportunities for education. Sadly that is not the case. For if it were the families in Beverly Hills CA would not have an issue with their kids going to South Central LA high aside from the distance issue. The quality of the educations in those two schools is quite different. Yes a big part of that is the kids. And that can be traced back to environment. Broken family verses 2 parents. Financially stable verses making ends meet. Safe neighborhood verses dangerous one.
Education has always been shown to help a person make something of them self. It is in the countries best interest to have an educated populace. I do not believe it is in governments best interest or businesses. They need ignorance to "keep the people down". I don't think it is a conspiracy on the ED Nortan level but I think it is an underlying issue.
Dell,
I do not think the reps and dems of today are the same reps and dems of 40 or 50 years ago much less 100 or 150 years ago. Why is it that current republican pundits and consultants are seeking ways to bring in minorities in to their ranks? How receptive are republicans to the gay community? Blacks and Hispanics, much less gays do not feel all that welcome in the party of Lincoln any more. I think a big part of the problem with the RNC is the religious right. Get rid of them and that mind set and you might have a fighting chance.
As for your argument that other African tribes sold their enemies to slavery. Are you saying that justifies us buying them? Just because someone is selling stolen property of the back of a truck does not mean you can buy it. I am pretty sure you do not want to use that argument in court. The bottom line is that white Americans owned other human beings and those human beings were in most cases minority. They were treated as property and disposed of as such when warranted.
Who abused who first is also not the issue. If someone came over and beat the crap out of you that does not give me the right to do it as well just because someone else did. Whether or not someone else screwed over the Native Americans first is not the issue. We have violated virtually every treaty ever signed with the tribes who were here. We slaughtered entire tribes whole sale. We put them in reservations which went against their entire being (most tribe were nomadic not sedentary), we deprived them of their language and culture (laws were enacted preventing them from speaking their native tongue and practicing their religious beliefs). Those were our actions. hey cannot be justified by the actions of others.
Sea,
I think there is a difference between fighting someone who you think is an enemy verses subjugation of fighting someone because you feel they are inferior. Native Americans were called savages in large part because they did not believe in god but also in part because of their 'primitive' and nomadic life style. It did not agree with our modern sedentary life so it must be wrong and we must get rid of it. Indian tribes fought all the time. Some of the conflicts were bloody as hell. But those were wars between enemy combatants.
If only all people had the same opportunities for education. Sadly that is not the case. For if it were the families in Beverly Hills CA would not have an issue with their kids going to South Central LA high aside from the distance issue. The quality of the educations in those two schools is quite different. Yes a big part of that is the kids. And that can be traced back to environment. Broken family verses 2 parents. Financially stable verses making ends meet. Safe neighborhood verses dangerous one.
Education has always been shown to help a person make something of them self. It is in the countries best interest to have an educated populace. I do not believe it is in governments best interest or businesses. They need ignorance to "keep the people down". I don't think it is a conspiracy on the ED Nortan level but I think it is an underlying issue.
Dell,
I do not think the reps and dems of today are the same reps and dems of 40 or 50 years ago much less 100 or 150 years ago. Why is it that current republican pundits and consultants are seeking ways to bring in minorities in to their ranks? How receptive are republicans to the gay community? Blacks and Hispanics, much less gays do not feel all that welcome in the party of Lincoln any more. I think a big part of the problem with the RNC is the religious right. Get rid of them and that mind set and you might have a fighting chance.
As for your argument that other African tribes sold their enemies to slavery. Are you saying that justifies us buying them? Just because someone is selling stolen property of the back of a truck does not mean you can buy it. I am pretty sure you do not want to use that argument in court. The bottom line is that white Americans owned other human beings and those human beings were in most cases minority. They were treated as property and disposed of as such when warranted.
Who abused who first is also not the issue. If someone came over and beat the crap out of you that does not give me the right to do it as well just because someone else did. Whether or not someone else screwed over the Native Americans first is not the issue. We have violated virtually every treaty ever signed with the tribes who were here. We slaughtered entire tribes whole sale. We put them in reservations which went against their entire being (most tribe were nomadic not sedentary), we deprived them of their language and culture (laws were enacted preventing them from speaking their native tongue and practicing their religious beliefs). Those were our actions. hey cannot be justified by the actions of others.
Sea,
I think there is a difference between fighting someone who you think is an enemy verses subjugation of fighting someone because you feel they are inferior. Native Americans were called savages in large part because they did not believe in god but also in part because of their 'primitive' and nomadic life style. It did not agree with our modern sedentary life so it must be wrong and we must get rid of it. Indian tribes fought all the time. Some of the conflicts were bloody as hell. But those were wars between enemy combatants.
AA was created to break the cycle of growing up and dying in the hood due to socio-economic conditions. Once 'minorities' were afforded the chance at good education/good paying jobs they and their children break the cycle and on it goes. It is a discriminatory practice and hiring lower scoring or less educated candidates has its issues too....Not everyone in the 'hood' likes Tom either.
The OP claimed Indians,Africans and Hispanics didn't reap what they sowed...Bull.
Before slavery was here it was in Africa and Europe. In Africa by Africans...Duh.
The OP claimed Indians,Africans and Hispanics didn't reap what they sowed...Bull.
Before slavery was here it was in Africa and Europe. In Africa by Africans...Duh.
Garfield1966
Veteran
I agree with this for the most part.
I think the OP meant here int he US but I'm not sure. Regardless. What was or was not done by others countries/tribes is not and should not be used as a justification for the US. We had a COTUS that said all men were created equal. That is unique in the world. Apparently our founding fathers felt that some were more equal than others. As far as I am concerned, the fact that we had a COTUS that justified the enslavement of people makes it a bit worse.
You posted this:
How do you know this?
You are preaching the typical lack of understanding of affirmative action. Affirmative action does not mandate quotas.
If you studied and got your degree in business, you would have been forced to take a course(s) that would have covered the topic of human resources and the laws pertaining to it.
Whether you agree with the law or not, affirmative action is the law of the land.
I was in the same boat as you and KC.
I went to college and got my degree...guess what...I got the job the next time.
SparrowHawk
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Don't tell me what was said in an off the record conversation with those who did the hiring and wanted me but were forced from Corporate HR AND Legal to hire her. You have no idea what transpired. I was there, you weren't.
I'm not totally anti AA, what I'm against is the creeping credentialism caused by it. WTF value is an MBA to a Freaking Salesman unless he/she is selling a highly technical product in which case an MBA would be useless as well as those positions would require an RN, Engineering degree.
Sooner or later you have to PRODUCE! Doesn't matter if they went to Harvard if they can't tell a dip of ice cream from a dip of horseshite, afterall a horse is stronger and a dog is friendlier, all man has to seperate us from the apes is common sense and opposable thumbs.
When a company rigs the deck to promote marginally qualified managers it's a disservice to the stockholders
Mr. delldude,
With the exception of (for example) the Navaho/Pueblo/Apache peoples(just naming the Large Tribes) the Vast majority of Native Americans were screwed over by people of One race.........the White race !
And of this "White Race"..95% were of one religion................Christian !
History can be many things.
In this case, is SAD and Factual !
With the exception of (for example) the Navaho/Pueblo/Apache peoples(just naming the Large Tribes) the Vast majority of Native Americans were screwed over by people of One race.........the White race !
And of this "White Race"..95% were of one religion................Christian !
History can be many things.
In this case, is SAD and Factual !
Hiring quota's were a direct result of that legislation and its interpretation.
Quota's are a very gray area in AA
I read somewhere Scalia commented on Civil Rights legislation as it never being tested for Constitutional status yet.
What they were doing was not against the law. It also sounds like they were meeting the intent of Title VII. They simply laid out a qualification of a degree requirement. Many companies want a degree in certain jobs. They simply want someone who has taken the time and effort to go to college and get the degree. That is especially true in a weakening economy when a company can afford to be more selective. Whether that translates into better performance is individual based.
Quite often HR departments have to do things that they know the front line managers will not like in order to meet federal law. If they did not, they would not be doing their job in protecting the firm from Title VII violations (one of many laws that they must watch).
The question of entitlement would arise if you had the same degree and then they promoted her over you.
The disservice to stockholders would be if the company failed to meet the provisions of Title VII and ended up in a nasty federal lawsuit, or even worse, being forced into a consent decree. I don't know if that was the case with you and your company. As you said, I was not there.
Look Here at the Northwest Airlines case. Many of the people in that suit worked in the Atlanta Maintenance Facility while I was there as a union rep.
Garfield1966
Veteran
Hatred, subjugation, bigotry of some sort will probably always endure. People of color, women, gays, religion ... you name it. Someone will figure out a way to hate you for it. All we can do it fight against it. ALL OF IT. Can't pick and choose. Either everyone in the is country is treated the same or our COTUS and the principles for which it stands (I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all) mean nothing.
It always amazes me how people rationalize a way to deprive a segment of society their rights as free citizens of the US. It seem to always boil down tot he same stupid thing. They are different than me and therefore it is OK. Sad.
It always amazes me how people rationalize a way to deprive a segment of society their rights as free citizens of the US. It seem to always boil down tot he same stupid thing. They are different than me and therefore it is OK. Sad.
US Government is pretty good at that Gar......take that to the bank.
SparrowHawk
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Sadly the government has put a law in place that in a way generated the "Race Card". Also I guess I'm a little different in my views. For me there is ony ONE color in business and that is GREEN. You bring in the revenue and you're my new best friend, don't produce as required and I've no use for you.
To this very day it always surprises me when someone insults a co-worker based on gender, race, religion or ethnicity. I genuinely don't care as long as my reps are over quota. That's the ONLY credential or criteria that matters to me.
There will always be opportunist's in everything(Old and New)
AA did a lot of good, but there definitely (have been)/are opportunist's who have/are giving that program a Bad name.
Not so long ago, I would have never stated that.
AA did a lot of good, but there definitely (have been)/are opportunist's who have/are giving that program a Bad name.
Not so long ago, I would have never stated that.
Spoken like a truly non-bigoted person.
I would like to think that I am the same way.
Ignorance is tolerable in the workplace as long as someone has the capability and desire to learn. Laziness is what I will not tolerate from employees. If an employee thinks there is no room for improvement, it is time for them to move on.
I absolutley don't care what they look like or what they do when off the clock.
Garfield1966
Veteran
The voting public does it as well every time they vote for a prop denying someone equal rights.
