Ramp Agents Only, Please

[bagchucker]

If it gives you a headache reading it, how do you think we feel living it? That is why DOH is so important. There are to many dates to remember for each employee, while some employees only have one date to remember. It's even worse now that Tempe is involved. There are too many options for payroll to keep track of, as well as benefits. DOH would ease everyone's mind, and place everyone where they rightfully belong on the seniority list.

Yes.. DOH across the board is the only fair way. Any other way gets too complicated. Simply put, when was day 1 on the ramp for the employee? Ok, that is your DOH...now slot that employee in on a combined list between East/West and bingo, a merged seniority list.

 

[diogenes]

Rogue,

It's simple. Calculate hours based on the schedule, not what you voluntarily take on (OT, shift trades,etc.).

In the past, part time has been approximated as 1/2 of full-time. Not always accurate. but closer than DOH.

You avoid my major point. Full time agents are scheduled in the workplace on a daily and weekly basis significantly longer than part-time agents.

How does it meet the needs of justice and common sense to give someone a windfall they did not earn?

Kindly address that. And some math to justify your position would be appreciated.

 

[Ramp Rogue]

Rogue,

It's simple. Calculate hours based on the schedule, not what you voluntarily take on (OT, shift trades,etc.).

In the past, part time has been approximated as 1/2 of full-time. Not always accurate. but closer than DOH.

You avoid my major point. Full time agents are scheduled in the workplace on a daily and weekly basis significantly longer than part-time agents.

How does it meet the needs of justice and common sense to give someone a windfall they did not earn?

Kindly address that. And some math to justify your position would be appreciated.

Dio,

As you put it, parttime seniority should be approximated as 1/2 of fulltime. By doing that, a p/timer that was hired in 1987 and was scheduled 2 hours per day would get 4 hours seniority. They just gained 2 hours of seniority that they didn't work. Another p/t hired in 1992 and was scheduled 6.5 hours per day, gets 4 hours seniority credit but actuallyworked 6.5 hours per day. Seniority hours was taken from them. Then you have a p/t that was hired in 1996, and gets 8 hours seniority credit no matter how many hours they work per day. Then along comes HP where their p/t's and f/t's are on one seniority list and it goes by straight DOH. Some agents are getting a windfall, and some are getting the shaft. Is that how it should be? NO! Everyone should be treated equally. The day that you are hired in the ramp is the day your seniority starts. It makes it easier on everyone. The agent, payroll, benefits, bidding, and nonrevving. DOH is the only fair way.

 

[Kev3188]

What happens in this example?

Ramper A is hired on 12/31/1999

Ramper B is hired on 01/01/2000

Ramper A stays PT, but ramper B goes FT on 01/01/2002

Now in 2008, Ramper A decides to go FT. Are you saying that he should have '99 seniority for FT and be able to leapfrog Ramper B, who's been FT for 6 years?

 

[diogenes]

Yes kev, that is exactly what rogue is saying.


Rogue, when you deal with a large number of people, you have to go with averages.

Were there some p/t agents scheduled 2 or 6 hours? Yes but overall, 4 is an accurate average to represent p/t work.

What you are advocating is to give the 2 hour agent credit for 8 hours.

In that case, my suggestion (not to mention it was the actual policy that most employees were hired under) is only off 2 hours (4-2=2). Yours is off 6 hours (8-2=6).

In the case of the 6 hour agent, my suggestion is off 2 hours (6-4=2), as is yours (8-6=2).

Bottom line: 4 hours is a more accurate representation of p/t work than 8.

I am done demonstrating this. You can continue as long as you please, but let me remind you of the brick wall you will encounter. The vast majority of FS employees were hired under this policy, and they are not about to vote to reduce their seniority for a handful of folks that chose not to go full-time.

 

[roabilly]

Date ahh Hire....

Havin' several senoirity dates is crazy....

Clean it up N/C !

 

[perserverance]

''rouge and dio'',
As I already stated this is a very touchy subject and each of us may have
and seem to have different opinions. ''Rouge'' as I read your posts I take it DOH irregardless
of time worked or class involved and ''dio'' posts are DOH based on the hours one works to make
up thier senority. That being said a prime example of an employee taking advantage of both
scenarios is an employee who when asked if they would like to be upgraded to F/T but elects
to reamin P/T because they maybe are getting better days off or able to compensate for thier
lack of F/T pay by working OT to make up the difference but keep thier weekends off , in my
opinion should not keep thier DOH for bidding purposes but shoud retain thier DOH for all other
areas, ie. vacation,layoffs and sick time. An employee should keep DOH until they have had the
oppourtunity to become F/T and decided to turn it down. In this case an employee who takes the
upgrade and falls to the bottom of the F/T bidding list after being at the top of the P/T bid should
stay above the employee who remained P/T after having the oppourtunity to upgrade. Its' at this
point DOH should become an issue for bidding.

In Phl back in the 80's and early 90's many employees' constantly turned down F/T to keep the
weekends off and made more money than most F/T's by working swaps in the areas they wanted to
work or accepting OT where they wanted to be while someone who did take an upgrade was more
than likely stuck at the bottom with Mon./Tues. off and working a late gate shift (1500/2330 or such).
That person who took the upgrade chose to do so to get F/T and accrue thier seniority. That
said I don't believe that the P/T employee shoud be able to 8 years down the line decide to upgrade
and be ahead of the employee who took the upgrade 7 and a half years ago,for bidding purposes
only, not vacations and such.

Again just so I'm clear once you are offered the oppourtunity to take a F/T position and you
refuse it, it is at this point your DOH should be affected. Til then DOH is across the board but
I also believe ''in class''. But this is my opinion. I have people I would jump above if we went by
DOH and there are people who would leap me. That is why we have ''hire date and classification''
dates one being DOH and the other being when you accepted a F/T position. It could all be figured
out. Now, someone who has never been given the chance to upgrade should have the same DOH
and classification dates.....

Sorry ''kevin'' this probably confuses you more.


Thanks

 

[blownkneesbob]

I would have to say DOH. since I hired on FT I don't have adjusted date but have seen over the years
how the systems gets manipulated. I also think the union has a hand in this since they never have enforced the pt ratio and gave pt hrs out at 5 to 6 hr shifts
so there hasn't been any motivation for pt s to upgrade or transfer out of station like years ago. PT help was orginally set up to supplement the operation
but no more.

 

[Ramp Rogue]

What happens in this example?

Ramper A is hired on 12/31/1999

Ramper B is hired on 01/01/2000

Ramper A stays PT, but ramper B goes FT on 01/01/2002

Now in 2008, Ramper A decides to go FT. Are you saying that he should have '99 seniority for FT and be able to leapfrog Ramper B, who's been FT for 6 years?

Ok Kev, Dio, & Pers,

Here is what is going to happen if things stay as they are.

1. East ramper A DOH 12/31/1989 p/t has never been called for f/t.

2. East ramper B DOH 1/1/1990 p/t. Goes f/t on 1/1/1994. Gets a new date of 1/1/1992.

3. East ramper C DOH 1/31/1991 F/T. Was never p/t.

4. West ramper D DOH 12/30/1989 p/t. Goes f/t on 1/1/2008. New date? No change 12/30/1989.
(West goes by DOH for everyone, and everything. No adjustments, no classification, just DOH)

5. West ramper E DOH 12/31/1989 f/t. has never been p/t.
(West goes by DOH for everyone, and everything. No adjustments, no classification, just DOH)

6. Jump forward to 1996 when Wolfe decided that everyone hired from 1996 on would go by DOH.

I hope that these real scenarios give you a better understanding of what is happening with the haphazard seniority systems that we have. Only to further muddy the waters once we integrate with west. Because they are going to jump ahead of a lot of east folks that were hired before west existed. And that is because some of us go by class instead of DOH, and they only go by DOH.

 

[Turbo19]

I never agreed with adjusted dates for part time employees. A lot east employees were forced to go to part time just to keep there jobs or to avoid selling there homes and moving there family half way across the country just to stay full time. Or worse commute!

 

[Kev3188]

2. East ramper B DOH 1/1/1990 p/t. Goes f/t on 1/1/1994. Gets a new date of 1/1/1992.

I guess this is what confuses me the most... Why the adjustments? What's the rationale?

 

[perserverance]

Rouge'',
I see your point but my post refers to someone turning down
when offered a F/T upgrade, otherwise DOH works. I believe when and if
someone has the chance to become F/T and does not want it then that employee's
seniority should be effected from that point on in regards to his F/T seniority if
they were to take an upgrade later. ''blownkneesbob'' welcome to the board and
your correct P/T was only meant to supplement the help for F/T employees'. There
was and still is a % of P/T based on the F/T number which the union and company
tried to eliminate in the last TA proposal. DOH and Class dates as far as I know are
when you were hired and when you accepted F/T, respectively. I have no qualms
having DOH only if in this case the employee went from P/T to F/T upon thier chance
to upgrade.

example 1 : employee hired Jan. 1st ,1990 and offered F/T Feb 1st ,1990 and they accept
it. Then thier DOH would be thier seniority date.

example 2 : different employee same hiring class (01-01-1990) but turns down F/T upgrade
on Feb. 1st, 1990, thier seniority when and if they decide to accept a F/T upgrade should be
effected for bidding purposes only.(an employee never offered F/T would still keep thier DOH
unless if offered F/T they turn it down.)

Again DOH works for me but I just have a difference if an employee doesn't want to go F/T
and later decides they want it. I know of alot of employees who stayed P/T for better days
off and better work areas while others took the upgrade when initially offered and went to
the bottom of the F/T bid and worked in the areas left for them on the bid with bad days off
til they had more F/T upgrades below them.

* in the event layoffs come into the picture DOH should apply, in my opinion.

Thanks

 

[john john]

I could care less. When I was a gate agent, I lost my senority to Easies, nothing changed when they got their contract.

Im sure nothing will matter as well now that Im ramp.

CWA Passenger Service Agents for all Classifications has one date for seniority DOH…….
CSS are still hand pick my management DOH is not a factor
When it comes to reductions in force the company can choose what classification to reduce
The company in the pass has layoff the agents and kept jr CSS. This environment of protecting jr CSS makes CSS jr managers. IOW you got my back I got yours
Sorry not a ramp agent now but use to be you know that 30 day take a picture thing

 

[Ramp Rogue]

I guess this is what confuses me the most... Why the adjustments? What's the rationale?

The unrational rationale is that p/t's were to only gain half time (which was considered to be 4 hours per work day) because they were p/t. While f/timers gained a full 8 hours because they were fulltime. But there were agents in some cities that were scheduled 2 hours per day, while agents in other cities were scheduled 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 6, or 6.5 hours per day. It's not fair to give someone scheduled 2 hours per day 4 hours credit, and someone scheduled 4.5 or more hours per day 4 hours credit. Then on top of that when you go f/t your date changes. And if you ever go back to p/t it would change again. Do you now see where the problem lies? And we are supposed to stay sane in a system like this.

 

[isthisok]

How about hours worked divided by 8 to get a days seniority. You work 2.5 hours you get 2.5 hours seniority. And I'm talking about scheduled hours worked. You should not get seniority from overtime hours. Some people cannot work overtime because of family obligations, etc. Scheduled hours worked for seniority.