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Remember this in 2005? Union leaders bad or good?

Are you serious?

The plane was taken out of service and repaired by the morning, they replaced a controller and has problems with the hot bus electrical power.

So your saying the maintenance foreman and mechanics performed an unnecessary repair and signed off the log book?

Dont let the facts get in your way.

You really need a new slogan since the facts are usually yours and work for your arguments..... Take the elementary paper you wrote.... It really promotes your feelings and thought.. Doesnt mean they are facts or even true in the real world! Unions protect those who are slackers not hard workers. Im sure theres a case in point but wont go there.... Unions have a place in day to day operations however they are as good and healthy as the company is at the time. No point in arguing these facts you wont change my mind and i wont change yours. The posting is relevant considering what is happening yet again to the company. But great piece of work you wrote by the way. Too bad 90% of the american workers doesnt see it your way!
 
You really need a new slogan since the facts are usually yours and work for your arguments..... Take the elementary paper you wrote.... It really promotes your feelings and thought.. Doesnt mean they are facts or even true in the real world! Unions protect those who are slackers not hard workers. Im sure theres a case in point but wont go there.... Unions have a place in day to day operations however they are as good and healthy as the company is at the time. No point in arguing these facts you wont change my mind and i wont change yours. The posting is relevant considering what is happening yet again to the company. But great piece of work you wrote by the way. Too bad 90% of the american workers doesnt see it your way!
Right on. Unions broke the backs of the textile, steel, electronics, auto, and most other manufacturing industries in America. All of those labor protections don't mean a thing when most of the jobs are subsequently transferred across the border or offshore locations to avoid government over-regulation and union cartels that restrict companies from making a reasonable profit (ROI). Unions artificially and negatively affect the natural market forces of supply and demand which further erodes a businesses ability to make a profit and in return hire more workers as the business succeeds and grows. Instead jobs are eliminated and companies have to resort to outsourced work via contractors in order to maintain a good financial health for the company. All the while unions get frustrated that they are losing members and jobs with no care or concern for the unintended (hopefully) consequences they have created by weakening American businesses and our economy.

Unions continue to be one of the biggest drags on America's GDP as organized labor is unquestionable less productive and less efficient than at-will labor. Job protections and higher wages sound like good goals on a individual basis, but on the macro scale workers are only hurting themselves with anti-competitive, anti-free market practices which drive unemployment up, GDP down, and weaken the US dollar as Americans have to increasingly buy goods (or talk to tech support agents) from overseas. The jobs that remain in America today are mostly service sector and government jobs because those cannot logistically be moved out of the country.

Why do most of the products in Walmart (low prices) come from china? Unions. Why does Apple not manufacture its products in America? Unions. Corporate millionaire and billionaires are not the ones bringing America down. Unions are bad for America plain and simple.

Oh, and before 700 begins to wax poetic on all the benefits of unions again, let me counter that government enforced 40 hour work weeks are bad for America; minimum wage laws are bad for America; and every other scheme the unions have forced this nation into are unequivocally bad for America. Far better to have a job where you work 60 hours a week for $2/hr than to have no job at all. China likes these anti-business American policies though. They get to sell us products and then assume our massive debt to pay people in this country not to work. It's the best of both worlds for them. For US, we are all but insolvent and would be if China and other nations didn't loan us enough to get by for another year.
 
There are arguments to be made on both sides of this discussion, but Calloway Golf speaks alot of truth. Unions are responsible for the lack of productivity and inability for the US to compete on the manufacturing front. There is no reason whatsoever an autoworker who does manual labor deserves $80 an hour, but it's happening. There is no justification for an auto worker to be paid to sit idle, but it happens. There is no reason to give a teacher tenure just because he has been employed three years, but it happens. MERIT needs to be considered. PERFORMANCE should be required...but in many cases it isn't...

To be fair, I equally blame management in such cases for agreeing to such nonsense in the first place...but it starts at the unions. The unions in this country once served a vital purpose and were responsible for the decent standard of living once enjoyed by most Americans. But over time their mission has changed, and I don't think they changed with it....and contracts got fatter, and people got paid more to do less, and the situation got totally out of hand, until it became unsustainable, and work was outsourced because US industry couldn't compete.

American laborers deserve to earn a decent living. They do NOT deserve to allow their unions to fleece the companies who employ them, making it impossible for those companies to compete on the global market. There is a middle ground somewhere, I just wish someone could find it.

That said, I am NOT defending management as a whole, because they bear a good part of the blame as well, but it started with the unions getting greedy, and moved on from there.

If unions were smart (and perhaps some are), they would begin working on keeping jobs here in the US, and on doing whatever is necessary to keep people employed... with LIVEABLE wages and DECENT benefits. They MUST realize the status quo is unsustainable and cannot continue.

With specific regard to US, I would urge all senior management to go back and read Gordon Bethune's book again...I am reading it for the 4th time, and so much of it is completely relevent. When a majority of people working for a company hate going to work, the results are easy to see---just look at US today......

My best to you all...
 
Unions = Artificial barrier between supply and demand. (Sometimes glad it's there, sometimes not.)
 
Unions = Artificial barrier between supply and demand. (Sometimes glad it's there, sometimes not.)


Unions cost jobs and that is a fact.
Also union almost always protect those few at the top at the expense of the many to the industry's, company's and unions own determent. Not very egalitarian of them at all.
Then add to the fact that most unions are political fronts for the socialist and communist movement in American and give almost all of their money to the most anti jobs president ever we get the poor job prospects that we do.
 
Funny Art union workers are more productive than their non-union counterparts and America has the most productive workforce yet lag behind in compensation and benefits compared to the most of the civilized big economies and countries.

So shall we go back to child labor, no minimum wage, no safety in the workplace?

People got killed and hurt to form unions, there is a reason why they exist, check out the robber barons who became rich off of their workers backs and threw them away like garbage when they got hurt or too old.

You people are back in the stone ages with your thoughts.

You people have no idea of what its like, most of you anti-union folk are white collar and never used your body to make a living and end up with injuries, surgeries etc..

I blew my knee out working on an old PI 727 and had six surgeries, if it wasnt for the IAM and my CBA I would have been let go and never had a job to come back too.

Airline employees are the second highest rate of injury out of all classes, farming being the first.

Unions Are Good for Business, Productivity and the Economy
Home > Join A Union > Why You Need a Union > The Union Difference

According to Professor Harley Shaiken of the University of California-Berkeley,[1] unions are associated with higher productivity, lower employee turnover, improved workplace communication, and a better-trained workforce.

Prof. Shaiken is not alone. There is a substantial amount of academic literature on the following benefits of unions and unionization to employers and the economy:

Economic Growth
Productivity
Competitiveness
Product or service delivery and quality
Training
Turnover
Solvency of the firm
Workplace health and safety
Economic development

Economic Growth

During the period 1945-1973, when a high percentage of workers had unions, wages kept pace with rising productivity, prosperity was widely shared, and economic growth was strong. Since 1973, union density and collective bargaining have declined, causing real wages to stagnate despite rising productivity. This decline in union density and bargaining contributed to the current financial crisis and severe recession, as unsustainable asset appreciation and easy credit too the place of wage increases most workers were not getting [2]
Productivity

According to a recent survey of 73 independent studies on unions and productivity: “The available evidence points to a positive and statistically significant association between unions and productivity in the U.S. manufacturing and education sectors, of around 10 and 7 percent, respectively.”[3]

Some scholars have found an even larger positive relationship between unions and productivity. According to Brown and Medoff, “unionized establishments are about 22 percent more productive than those that are not.”[4]
Product/ Service Delivery and Quality

According to Professors Michael Ash and Jean Ann Seago [5] heart attack recovery rates are higher in hospitals where nurses are unionized than in non-union hospitals. According to Professor Paul Clark, nurse unions improve patient care by raising staff-to-patient ratios, limiting excessive overtime, and improving nurse training. [6]

Another study looked at the relationship between unionization and product quality in the auto industry.[7] According to a summary of this study prepared by American Rights at Work:

“The author examines the system of co-management created through the General Motors-United Auto Workers partnership at the Saturn Corporation…The author credits the union with building a dense communications network throughout Saturn's management system. Compared to non-represented advisors, union advisors showed greater levels of lateral communication and coordination, which had a significant positive impact on quality performance.”


Training

Several studies in have found a positive association between unionization and the amount and quality of workforce training. Unionized establishments are more likely to offer formal training.[8] This is especially true for small firms. There are a number of reasons for this: less turnover among union workers, making the employer more likely to offer training; collective bargaining agreements that require employers to provide training; and finally, unions often conduct their own training.
Turnover

Professor Shaiken also finds that unions reduce turnover. He cites Freeman and Medoff’s finding that “about one fifth of the union productivity effect stemmed from lower worker turnover. Unions improve communication channels giving workers the ability to improve their conditions short of ‘exiting.’”[9]
Solvency

Labor’s enemies assert that unions drive employers out of business, but academic research refutes this claim. According to Professors Richard Freeman and Morris Kleiner, unionism has a statistically insignificant effect (meaning no effect) on firm solvency.[10] Freeman and Kleiner conclude “unions do not, on average, drive firms or business lines out of business or produce high displacement rates for unionized workers.”
Workplace Health and Safety

Employers should be concerned about workplace health and safety as a matter of enlightened self-interest. According to an American Rights at Work summary of a study by John E. Baugher and J. Timmons Roberts:



“Only one factor effectively moves workers who are in subordinate positions to actively cope with hazards: membership in an independent labor union. These findings suggest that union growth could indirectly reduce job stress by giving workers the voice to cope effectively with job hazards.” [11]

The benefits of unions in terms of safer workplaces are hardly new. According to one most recent study, unions reduced fatalities in coal mining by an estimated 40 percent between 1897 and 1929. [12]
Economic Development

Unions also play a positive role in economic development. One good example is the Wisconsin Regional Training Partnership, “an association of 125 employers and unions dedicated to family-supporting jobs in a competitive business environment. WRTP members have stabilized manufacturing employment in the Milwaukee metro area, and contributed about 6,000 additional industrial jobs to it over the past five years. Among member firms, productivity is way up--exceeding productivity growth in nonmember firms.”[13]

[1] Harley Shaiken, The High Road to a Competitive Economy: A Labor Law Strategy, Center for American Progress, June 25, 2004, pp. 7-8. http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/%7BE9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03%7D/unionpaper.pdf

[2] Dean Baker, "The Recession and the Freedom to Organize," AFL-CIO Point of View, Feb. 2008

[3] Christos Doucouliagos and Patrice Laroche, “The Impact of U.S. Unions on Producivity: A Bootstrap Meta-analysis,” Proceedings of the Industrial Relations Research Association, 2004. See also, by the same authors, “What Do Unions Do to Productivity: A Meta-analysis,” Industrial Relations, Volume 42 Issue 4 October 2003:

[4] Charles Brown and James L. Medoff, “Trade Unions in the Production Process.” Journal of Political

Economy, vol. 86, no. 3 (June 1978): 355–378.

[5] Michael Ash and Jean Ann Seago, “The effect of registered nurses' unions on heart-attack mortality,” Industrial and Labor Relations Review, Vol. 57, No. 3 (Apr. 2004), pp. 422-442.

[6] Paul Clark and Darlene Clark, "Collective Bargaining in American Hospitals: The Response of Nurse Unions to the Crisis in American Health Care, " LERA, Jan 2009.

[7] Saul A. Rubinstein, “The Impact of Co-Management on Quality Performance: The Case of the Saturn Corporation.” Industrial and Labor Relations Review, Vol. 53, No. 197 (January 2000).

[8] Harley J. Frazis, Diane E. Herz and Michael W. Horrigan, “Employer-Provided Training: Results from a New Survey.” Monthly Labor Review (May 1995): 3–17.

[9] Harley Shaiken, cited earlier, quoting Richard Freeman and James Medoff, What Do Unions Do? New York, Basic Books, 1984.

[10] Richard B. Freeman and Morris M. Kleiner, “Do Unions Make Enterprises Insolvent?” Industrial and Labor Relations Review, vol. 52, no. 4 (July 1999): 510–527.

[11] John E. Baugher and J. Timmons Roberts, “Workplace Hazards, Unions and Coping Styles.” Labor

Studies Journal, Vol. 29, No. 2 (Summer 2004).

[12] William M. Boal, "The Effect of Unionism on Accidents in US Coal Mining," 1897-1929, 'Industrial Relations,' Vol. 48, No. 1 (Jan. 2009)

[13] Annette Bernhardt, Laura Dresser, and Joel Rogers, “Taking the High Road in Milwaukee: The Wisconsin Regional Training Partnership.” Working USA, Vol. 5, Issue 3 (January 31, 2002).
 
And if you dont believe in unions, then go to work Monday and work for free because this holiday is for the workers and unions brought you many things you have, directly or indirectly.

From the US Department of Labor:

The History of Labor Day

Labor Day: How it Came About; What it Means

Labor Day, the first Monday in September, is a creation of the labor movement and is dedicated to the social and economic achievements of American workers. It constitutes a yearly national tribute to the contributions workers have made to the strength, prosperity, and well-being of our country.

Founder of Labor Day

More than 100 years after the first Labor Day observance, there is still some doubt as to who first proposed the holiday for workers.

Some records show that Peter J. McGuire, general secretary of the Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners and a cofounder of the American Federation of Labor, was first in suggesting a day to honor those "who from rude nature have delved and carved all the grandeur we behold."

But Peter McGuire's place in Labor Day history has not gone unchallenged. Many believe that Matthew Maguire, a machinist, not Peter McGuire, founded the holiday. Recent research seems to support the contention that Matthew Maguire, later the secretary of Local 344 of the International Association of Machinists in Paterson, N.J., proposed the holiday in 1882 while serving as secretary of the Central Labor Union in New York. What is clear is that the Central Labor Union adopted a Labor Day proposal and appointed a committee to plan a demonstration and picnic.

The First Labor Day

The first Labor Day holiday was celebrated on Tuesday, September 5, 1882, in New York City, in accordance with the plans of the Central Labor Union. The Central Labor Union held its second Labor Day holiday just a year later, on September 5, 1883.

In 1884 the first Monday in September was selected as the holiday, as originally proposed, and the Central Labor Union urged similar organizations in other cities to follow the example of New York and celebrate a "workingmen's holiday" on that date. The idea spread with the growth of labor organizations, and in 1885 Labor Day was celebrated in many industrial centers of the country.

Labor Day Legislation

Through the years the nation gave increasing emphasis to Labor Day. The first governmental recognition came through municipal ordinances passed during 1885 and 1886. From them developed the movement to secure state legislation. The first state bill was introduced into the New York legislature, but the first to become law was passed by Oregon on February 21, 1887. During the year four more states — Colorado, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York — created the Labor Day holiday by legislative enactment. By the end of the decade Connecticut, Nebraska, and Pennsylvania had followed suit. By 1894, 23 other states had adopted the holiday in honor of workers, and on June 28 of that year, Congress passed an act making the first Monday in September of each year a legal holiday in the District of Columbia and the territories.

A Nationwide Holiday

The form that the observance and celebration of Labor Day should take were outlined in the first proposal of the holiday — a street parade to exhibit to the public "the strength and esprit de corps of the trade and labor organizations" of the community, followed by a festival for the recreation and amusement of the workers and their families. This became the pattern for the celebrations of Labor Day. Speeches by prominent men and women were introduced later, as more emphasis was placed upon the economic and civic significance of the holiday. Still later, by a resolution of the American Federation of Labor convention of 1909, the Sunday preceding Labor Day was adopted as Labor Sunday and dedicated to the spiritual and educational aspects of the labor movement.

The character of the Labor Day celebration has undergone a change in recent years, especially in large industrial centers where mass displays and huge parades have proved a problem. This change, however, is more a shift in emphasis and medium of expression. Labor Day addresses by leading union officials, industrialists, educators, clerics and government officials are given wide coverage in newspapers, radio, and television.

The vital force of labor added materially to the highest standard of living and the greatest production the world has ever known and has brought us closer to the realization of our traditional ideals of economic and political democracy. It is appropriate, therefore, that the nation pay tribute on Labor Day to the creator of so much of the nation's strength, freedom, and leadership — the American worker.
 
WN highest unionized airline in the industry, most productive and most profitable, try another tactic.

Unions have saved the airlines, auto industry, Harley Davidson.

Why is it ok for CEOs and executives to have contracts and not workers?

Perfect example, Dave Siegel fired and he gets $6 million, and I lose my pension.

You people have no idea what it is like in the real world.

Go send your kids to work in the factory at 7 years old, or the coal mine, would you like that?

Live in a company town and get paid in company script and have no money to live on, as you have to buy everything from the company.

And when you cant work they throw you out.

Is that what you all want again?
 
Unions cost jobs and that is a fact.
Also union almost always protect those few at the top at the expense of the many to the industry's, company's and unions own determent. Not very egalitarian of them at all.
Then add to the fact that most unions are political fronts for the socialist and communist movement in American and give almost all of their money to the most anti jobs president ever we get the poor job prospects that we do.
Ah once again you fill your post with outright falsehoods.

A union is not communist nor socialist, they believe in getting the best for its membership.

And a union by law cannot give dues money to a political party or candidate.

Why do you lie in your post and post false information?

A union has to report by law every single penny it spends, LMRDA, a company does not.

Once again, dont let the facts get in your way.

Does Glass, Hemenway and Harbinson know your posting from your cubicle which is a violation of company policy?
 
Funny Art union workers are more productive than their non-union counterparts and America has the most productive workforce yet lag behind in compensation and benefits compared to the most of the civilized big economies and countries.

So shall we go back to child labor, no minimum wage, no safety in the workplace?

People got killed and hurt to form unions, there is a reason why they exist, check out the robber barons who became rich off of their workers backs and threw them away like garbage when they got hurt or too old.

You people are back in the stone ages with your thoughts.

You people have no idea of what its like, most of you anti-union folk are white collar and never used your body to make a living and end up with injuries, surgeries etc..

I blew my knee out working on an old PI 727 and had six surgeries, if it wasnt for the IAM and my CBA I would have been let go and never had a job to come back too.

Airline employees are the second highest rate of injury out of all classes, farming being the first.
Man there are so many holes in that article you posted you ought to be ashamed to cite it as a source. No wonder, it was based on the work of a professor at Berkeley. :lol: I lost count on how many times the assertions were self-contradictory. It talks about worker productivity during the 1945-1973 when there was a high percentage of unionized workers but then goes on to say that union membership declined while productivity continued to rise. Hmm, less unionized but higher productivity. Now what's the correlation there?

After citing some highly questionable sources it then talks about hospitals with unionized nurses vs. those that are not. They claim patient care is better (now don't miss this) because there is a higher staff-to-patient ratio in unionized hospitals. So how can you have a higher degree of productivity when you have more staff in comparison to a hospital that uses less and therefore mathematically more efficient productivity ratios?

There are plenty of other examples, but the point is quite clear and mathematically impossible to avoid. If you have to pay workers more than market rates because of a collective bargaining agreement, then productivity will diminish vs. the same work done by the same workers could have been done for less. Workers who know their job is on the line each and every day if they don't perform will be inherently more productive than one that feels his job will always be protected by his union even if he slacks off significantly. There is just no logical or mathematical way unions add to productivity because they operate under an entirely different, and contrary set of objectives than the stakeholders who own the business and are looking to make a profit based on maximized worker productivity. It's laughable to think otherwise or else Managements everywhere would be clamoring to add unionized work forces so as to gain the benefit you claim exists. Never going to happen because it is an invented UC Berkeley productivity gain that doesn't exist and never will.

You even back this up with your story about your knee injury. Sorry to hear about you medical troubles, but please explain how you were more productive with a knee injury than you were without one. You see this too is illogical. Paying someone who cannot perform because of an injury might be noble and kind, but let's not pretend that this is somehow a productivity gain. Again, laughable.

And on the final point, you mention labor day. Great, so now we have another holiday whereby no productive work gets done because the business is closed, or those who do work get paid double their normal salary for working a holiday. So again, please explain how a paid and useless holiday like Labor Day where less work is done somehow adds to a company's or America's productivity. Paying people not to work never equals more productivity, but hey - "don't let the facts get in your way".
 
They didnt pay me, I was on workers comp, if I didnt have a CBA I would have been fired as I was out of work for over two years on and off.

If I was non-union after 90 days I would have been terminated.

Send your kid off to the factory or coal mine at 7.

You people have no clue.
 
700 if you read carefully (and I know you can), I acknowledged what unions have accomplished IN THE PAST. In today's current situation, they are not changing to adapt their mission to protect jobs and assure FAIR wages and benefits for all. Your argument does not hold water. YOU and the unions who want to maintain the status quo are the ones in the dark ages.

You will also note I blame management too for allowing the unions to get their workers such uncompetitive and job killing contracts...

In the case of US, however, nothing will improve until management changes their view toward employees in general, and then customers. These are ASSETS not LIABILITIES...and until you realize that E, you will not see any improvement. People who hate to come to work do not do well--for themselves OR the company.

Times have changed--union goals have not. They need to or they will become an anachronism...left in the dust.

And I am NOT defending management by any stretch, I am merely saying that your mission has changed, so get with the program....it will cost BOTH sides to make things right again, so enough of the temper tantrums on BOTH sides and get on with it.
 
If they were not fair and not adapting, explain how all the unions at US took concessions back in 1992, 2002, 2003 and 2005 to keep the company in business?

We in the IAM even adopted the HPWO to make US more efficient and low level management resisted.

I sat across the table, from them, we offered so many ways to be more effiecent and cost effective and they wanted no part of it.

We met their ask without losing 46% of the workforce and they wanted no part of it, this was their answer "We dont want to manage people", all they wanted to do was outsource.

Your not a union member and dont fight or have fought the battles, you go on stereotypes.
 
WN highest unionized airline in the industry, most productive and most profitable, try another tactic.
And you think the correlation is the unionized work force? You don't think it has anything to do with their single fleet type and single class of service? You don' think their being a quick turn, big market an no-frills carrier has more to do with productivity than the percentage of unionization? I think you need a lesson in statistical correlation analysis.

Unions have saved the airlines, auto industry, Harley Davidson.
Is that before or after they send them into bankruptcy?

Why is it ok for CEOs and executives to have contracts and not workers?
Because the owners of the company want to retain the best talent to run their companies and are willing (own volition in a free market economy) to do so.

Perfect example, Dave Siegel fired and he gets $6 million, and I lose my pension.
Maybe you needed to take an executive position instead of joining a union.

You people have no idea what it is like in the real world.
Really. How many Fortune 500 companies have you led as Chairman and CEO? How many payroll checks do you write each month? How man investors have you personally convinced to put their money at risk in your business? Just exactly what is the real world - by your definition - and what do you call the place where the rest of the population resides if it's not real?

Go send your kids to work in the factory at 7 years old, or the coal mine, would you like that?

Live in a company town and get paid in company script and have no money to live on, as you have to buy everything from the company.

And when you cant work they throw you out.

Is that what you all want again?
Hmm, or perhaps stay at home and draw unemployment, pay no taxes, and watch the national debt climb to $14+ trillion because more Americans take from the system than contribute to it. Yes, I do like your plan better - until we collapse under the weight of idiotic liberal and social policies that harm the very businesses we need to survive and pay wages to those who chose not to be entrepreneurs. Then, even you might think working in a coal mine and having your 7 year old help to put food on the table is a god thing. Else your little child might just die of starvation.
 
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