Rick Santorum? Really?

[SparrowHawk]

"One of the criticisms I make is to what I refer to as more of a libertarianish right . . . This whole idea of personal autonomy, well I don’t think most conservatives hold that point of view. Some do. They have this idea that people should be left alone, be able to do whatever they want to do . . . Well, that is not how traditional conservatives view the world . . ." —Rick Santorum

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism . . . The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." —Ronald Reagan

I find Mr Santorum's views to be a bit frightening. If I were not Christian I'd be somewhere between terrified and mortified. Conversely if you look at everyone running except my guy Ron Paul, all, including Barack Obama have made veiled references to the same Point of View as Mr Santorum. So I guess he earns points for having the cajones to just say it. Even though Ronald Reagan's view of a Conservative seems much more Mainstream. What disturbs me is Santorum's surge in Iowa. If you think the prospect of a Ron Paul Presidency is scary then I don't know what word comes after scary when you consider Rick Santorum.

 

[tech2101]

I find Mr Santorum's views to be a bit frightening.

I find Ron Paul blaming a victim of sexual harassment as someone who deserves it, or should just quit, quite frightening.

Peel back the onion that is Ron Paul and you will find that foul stench.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I find Ron Paul blaming a victim of sexual harassment as someone who deserves it, or should just quit, quite frightening.

Peel back the onion that is Ron Paul and you will find that foul stench.

The "Foul Stench" you refer to is the sweat aroma of individual liberty without the omnipresent nanny state sticking it's nose in trying to right every wrong real or imagined.

Time was if the boss has harassing the "girls" somebody's boyfriend/husband would set the boss up some kind of way. Like pay some hotty to come onto him and mail the photo's to his wife for example. I've done the "set up" personally with a guy trying to bleep with may career. My remedy was swift, sure and could never have been achieved in court regardless of the laws in place. When you look to Government for remedy of every single problem you create both a Nanny State and ultimately a police state which judging from your posts is what you prefer.

Freedom has a price and the price is risk.

 

[Dog Wonder]

I can think of a lot of reasons not to like Santorum.

Not being Ron Paul isn't one of them.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I can think of a lot of reasons not to like Santorum.

Not being Ron Paul isn't one of them.

Well Dog maybe I screwed up by even mentioning Ron Paul. I agree with you that there are a great many things to dislike about Rick Santorum. He claims to be a "Conservative" but I read and listen to him and I hear a Religious Fascist. Thus the thread and the contrasting quotes. I have a rom Paul thread going, actually 2 and it wasn't my intention to create yet another.

 

[7days]

Well Dog maybe I screwed up by even mentioning Ron Paul. I agree with you that there are a great many things to dislike about Rick Santorum. He claims to be a "Conservative" but I read and listen to him and I hear a Religious Fascist. Thus the thread and the contrasting quotes. I have a rom Paul thread going, actually 2 and it wasn't my intention to create yet another.

Just like clockwork, the nutters are becoming unglued.

 

[Ms Tree]

Santorum is a caricature. He will do OK with the other fringe base people but he will sink like a rock just like the other religious fanatics like Perry, Bachmann and Palin. Gingrich is being seen as the nut job he is. Republicans are starting to remember why they kicked his sorry ass out of Congress the first time. Paul will probably get a little traction out of the gate but when his books starting getting dissected (Harassee should just leave) he will sink as well.

'Setting someone up' does not smell like freedom to me, it sounds like vigilantism and anarchy. What if the boss decides to play hard ball and come after you? What if the wife does not care? Why not have laws in place that prevent such actions in the first place and stop treating the victim like a criminal or as someone who should just let the harasser do as they please and go out and fine a new job? As an ardent feminist and some one who was harassed I find this mentality disgusting. I suspect most women and quite a few men like my self will also find that mentality disgusting as well.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Santorum is a caricature. He will do OK with the other fringe base people but he will sink like a rock just like the other religious fanatics like Perry, Bachmann and Palin. Gingrich is being seen as the nut job he is. Republicans are starting to remember why they kicked his sorry ass out of Congress the first time. Paul will probably get a little traction out of the gate but when his books starting getting dissected (Harassee should just leave) he will sink as well.

'Setting someone up' does not smell like freedom to me, it sounds like vigilantism and anarchy. What if the boss decides to play hard ball and come after you? What if the wife does not care? Why not have laws in place that prevent such actions in the first place and stop treating the victim like a criminal or as someone who should just let the harasser do as they please and go out and fine a new job? As an ardent feminist and some one who was harassed I find this mentality disgusting. I suspect most women and quite a few men like my self will also find that mentality disgusting as well.

Other than there is no real basis for groups to have rights conferred upon them and their is no Constitutional authority for such laws why have yet another intrusion into the lives of private citizens?

Perhaps setting someone up is as you say. For me it is preferable to addressing the issues at hand as opposed to yet another intrusion by the Nanny State over an incident where the remedy was at hand. For example at a place I worked there was a strict policy regarding Sexual Harassment (A policy far more prohibitive then any laws in place then or now) This Lady who was quite level headed and not prone to non sense was getting a hard way to go from her boss on a host of issues, among them inappropriate comments. Tanya over the course of a year kept a journal (Which I suggested she do) on anything she felt was a policy or legal Violation by "Bill" towards her or anyone. Well something he said to her was the last straw and a 23 page letter detailing his conduct went to Corporate HR, the VP in fact. After a one week investigation by HR, "Bill" Was escorted off property by two armed security guards and the locksmith was changing the locks as he was led out

No government action was required and this was NOT a case of Vigilantism. If she had gone the route of an EEOC Complaint it would still be in court and this was 1992. Private enterprise works, Governments don't.

 

[tech2101]

Other than there is no real basis for groups to have rights conferred upon them and their is no Constitutional authority for such laws why have yet another intrusion into the lives of private citizens?

Perhaps setting someone up is as you say. For me it is preferable to addressing the issues at hand as opposed to yet another intrusion by the Nanny State over an incident where the remedy was at hand. For example at a place I worked there was a strict policy regarding Sexual Harassment (A policy far more prohibitive then any laws in place then or now) This Lady who was quite level headed and not prone to non sense was getting a hard way to go from her boss on a host of issues, among them inappropriate comments. Tanya over the course of a year kept a journal (Which I suggested she do) on anything she felt was a policy or legal Violation by "Bill" towards her or anyone. Well something he said to her was the last straw and a 23 page letter detailing his conduct went to Corporate HR, the VP in fact. After a one week investigation by HR, "Bill" Was escorted off property by two armed security guards and the locksmith was changing the locks as he was led out

No government action was required and this was NOT a case of Vigilantism. If she had gone the route of an EEOC Complaint it would still be in court and this was 1992. Private enterprise works, Governments don't.

Ok, I'll play. What if the head of HR was "Bill's" freind. What if "Bill" was the head of HR or worse, the CEO?

There is a reason why laws were founded. It was to prevent people like you from destroying a civil society with hare-brained ideas. Secondary victimization is alive and well in your world I see.

 

[Ms Tree]

Exactly what group are you referring to?

I am guessing you are wrong on the no government intervention. Just because the Feds did not knock on someones door does not mean the government was not involved. There have been numerous court cases out lining the liability of corporations in terms of sexual harassment. I do not remember the case but several years ago they handed down a sweeping decision. With in months AA had us all in training classes and sign a letter that went in our P-file that we knew, understood and agreed to the harassment policy of AA.

Companies have very little interest in anything except the bottom line. If there are no penalties then there is no policy. Look at Ford and the Pinto. You think another company is going to try that BS again? AA would not have given a rats ass about harassment had it not been for the decisions that have been handed down over the years and the legislation that has been enacted. Had the civil rights act of '64 not been passed women and minorities would not be where they are today in my opinion.

In the situation you cite I think the system worked as it was designed. Government enacted laws and guidelines for corporate behavior and the lady was able to get justice. I do not see one happening with out the other.

 

[Ms Tree]

Speaking of Techs 'what if'. When I was in Crew Skd at AA, any time someone filed a complaint or made an inquire to HR about our dept our boss always knew. She had a friend at HR who apparently told her everything. Could never be proven but we all knew it.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Speaking of Techs 'what if'. When I was in Crew Skd at AA, any time someone filed a complaint or made an inquire to HR about our dept our boss always knew. She had a friend at HR who apparently told her everything. Could never be proven but we all knew it.

Then you have to come up with "PLan B" which can include leaving the company. One way that can be very effective is the unsigned letter where specif incidents are outlined in detail and sent up the line outside the normal chain of command. Like sending the letter directly to corporate counsel for example.

See kids what no Government stooge will ever tell you is this. If you file an EEOC Complaint it becomes more or less Public Record and in many industries you can render yourself unemployable in ANY industry by merely filing the complaint. I got into traveling for business because my employer owed me multiple thousands in commissions. The only way I would have ever seen that money would have been to sue him. I chose not to as I did some checking and found it highly likely I'd never work in the industry again. So I found something else I enjoyed (more as it turned out) and about 3 years after I left Karma bit the guy right in the assets. He went out of business after 40 years. Seems he got caught selling used/discontinued equipment as new and got caught by one of the local TV Stations. Yet another example of Free Markets work and Government fails.

 

[Dog Wonder]

Yet another example of Free Markets work and Government fails.

Bernie Madoff agrees.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Bernie Madoff agrees.

Had he never got into trouble until he ran out of ways of paying people back. Once that happened, the SEC got wind of it and he ended up in jail. Free market sunk him as much as any federal government action. By the time the Feds got involved Bernie's house of cards was already beginning to collapse.

 

[delldude]

Had he never got into trouble until he ran out of ways of paying people back. Once that happened, the SEC got wind of it and he ended up in jail. Free market sunk gim as much as any federal government action. By the time the Feds got involved Bernie's house of cards was already beginning to collapse.

Will Corzine do any time?