RIF Notices

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Actually my focus is on Seniority.

Again, you were in favor of all the members being affected by giving concessions to reduce the number of people who may (or may not) be RIF'd, no concern about minimizing the disruption there, but in favor of having a senior guy bumped to a location he may not desire regardless of his seniority because the company decided to close his station. I know thats the way its been done here and I'm not saying that it should be changed now, it shoulkd have been addressed twenty years ago, but the logic you present as far as justifying it is inconsistant, if the arguement is to disrupt as few people as possible then it follows that a threatened RIF would have affected fewer people than definate across the board concessions. In that case the disruptions would have been by seniority, the low man gets disrupted instead of everyone, in the case of the RIF you advocate that the company gets to pick who gets disrupted and who doesnt because they get to choose where the reductions occur and where they can go, and the senior man is limited to chosing where the least senior man in the sytem is instead of like many other carriers, where his seniority allows. Another inconsistancy is if we are following the this process to minimize disruption then why are guys in MIA being bumped to New York? Two guys are being disrupted instead of one. Shouldnt all the vacancies be filled before anyone gets bumped? Wouldnt that minimize disruption?

Bob

It just seems that no matter what the rules are every layoff is handled different. I asked what rules were and was told that in the past someone filed a greivance stating his seniority is being violated being forced to fill a vacancy.
But in past layoffs that was the way it was. So now that AFW is being effected they are being allowed to bump rather than choosing one of the vacancies. I was also told that at AFW it was not a requirement to be fleet Qualified.
Now coming to a line station they need that as well as all the other line quals required? So how is it fair to anyone who has been working a line station, to get bumped because his occ. sen. is less than a guy coming from the O/H facility. But if the TWU had forced the company to open the transfer list in time those guys would of went to any place they chose just to get out of AFW since its closing. I fully understand how seniority works just should be handled the same not just to please a certain city/local or local president because he has been a TWU supporters
and the Intl. owes him. You have talked about everything being open and upfront then why is it we hear about thing from you and other line Presidents long after they happen. Are you part of the secrect deals as well.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob

It just seems that no matter what the rules are every layoff is handled different. I asked what rules were and was told that in the past someone filed a greivance stating his seniority is being violated being forced to fill a vacancy.
But in past layoffs that was the way it was. So now that AFW is being effected they are being allowed to bump rather than choosing one of the vacancies. I was also told that at AFW it was not a requirement to be fleet Qualified.
Now coming to a line station they need that as well as all the other line quals required? So how is it fair to anyone who has been working a line station, to get bumped because his occ. sen. is less than a guy coming from the O/H facility. But if the TWU had forced the company to open the transfer list in time those guys would of went to any place they chose just to get out of AFW since its closing. I fully understand how seniority works just should be handled the same not just to please a certain city/local or local president because he has been a TWU supporters
and the Intl. owes him. You have talked about everything being open and upfront then why is it we hear about thing from you and other line Presidents long after they happen. Are you part of the secrect deals as well.

AFW has always been a strong supporter of the craft and against concessions. I don't think they are getting special treatment, at least not preferential. As far as I know they have to pass the line test. From what I hear its a lot harder than when we took it.

As far as the secret deals, such as?

 

[Bob Owens]

You focused on THE senior man getting to go where ever he wants as long as he has anyone beat at that station. But you don't address how your plan would make one person being involuntarily RIF'd into several people being involuntarily RIF'd just so that ONE person can get to choose where he wants to go...It might make sense in your mind, and you might need that for your agenda...but in the real world, you're affecting more people than is necessary.

In the real Union world thats how it works. Seniority.

If we aren't going to honor strict seniority and instead focus on minimizing the amount of disruptions then wouldn't it make sense that the vacancies must be filled before they force a second round of movements?

Once again, RIFs should be disruptive, and expensive so the company avoids them. If they had to pay $12000 to 7 guys in order to cut one then it may be more cost effective to carry him and let attrition draw down the heads. This system we have wasn't put in place for the sake of the members, it was put in place to save the company money.

 

[Rogallo]

I would add that if the requirement was that all vacancies had to be filled prior to allowing someone to displace an individual on the juniority list, and the vacancy was at a station like SJU which no one being riffed selected, they would hit the street. Not a good situation.

How do you know no one selected SJU? Is there a list for union members to see? If not, how do you know???

 

[NYer]

In the real Union world thats how it works. Seniority.

If we aren't going to honor strict seniority and instead focus on minimizing the amount of disruptions then wouldn't it make sense that the vacancies must be filled before they force a second round of movements?

Once again, RIFs should be disruptive, and expensive so the company avoids them. If they had to pay $12000 to 7 guys in order to cut one then it may be more cost effective to carry him and let attrition draw down the heads. This system we have wasn't put in place for the sake of the members, it was put in place to save the company money.

What can you expect. You always put your zeal to screw the airline in front of the membership. You'd rather have the airline spend money even if it means 7 people have to be moved instead of 2. Wow.

 

[mike7863]

just wondering if anyone going to ord has gotten their report date. i work at taesl and we are not getting info there. the guys in the hangar are getting just a little bit more. and bob there are secrets deal going on at taesl.

 

[jacfrost]

Shh....... Don't let AFW know we are getting "special" treatment, because very few people are seeing anything special about hundreds of people being displaced and many hitting the streets, and some of us are taking the paycut to be an osm to stay local. We just aren't seeing anything "preferential" on our end of things.
We placed our bids on the numbers we were given, and after the time for the bidding closed, we were told that those numbers for "local" openings changed at DFW/DWH. The numbers that changed was substantial. That information should have been made known before the bidding closed, a lot of people would have done things differently.
As for the testing, everyone going to the line is taking the test. Initially not too many were passing, but the mechanics starting hitting the manuals, CBT's and much more to prep for the test. Now there are only a few not passing.
We don't get very much info at all, it's word of mouth, rumors and a lot of bull, that is what we are getting.
I am not going to miami, I took the downgrade for OSM, but MANY of the people I work with are going to Miami, Ord, Lax, Orlando, Austin, San Antonio, RDU, San Diego. Just to name a few. I am sorry that people may be displaced out of Miami, but AA has ran this RIF wrong in every direction. They could have done MANY things that would have made this easier on many people and used the bankruptcy crutch or what ever. They chose to run this as bad as they possibly could have, it could not have been run any worse.

 

[mike7863]

Shh....... Don't let AFW know we are getting "special" treatment, because very few people are seeing anything special about hundreds of people being displaced and many hitting the streets, and some of us are taking the paycut to be an osm to stay local. We just aren't seeing anything "preferential" on our end of things.
We placed our bids on the numbers we were given, and after the time for the bidding closed, we were told that those numbers for "local" openings changed at DFW/DWH. The numbers that changed was substantial. That information should have been made known before the bidding closed, a lot of people would have done things differently.
As for the testing, everyone going to the line is taking the test. Initially not too many were passing, but the mechanics starting hitting the manuals, CBT's and much more to prep for the test. Now there are only a few not passing.
We don't get very much info at all, it's word of mouth, rumors and a lot of bull, that is what we are getting.
I am not going to miami, I took the downgrade for OSM, but MANY of the people I work with are going to Miami, Ord, Lax, Orlando, Austin, San Antonio, RDU, San Diego. Just to name a few. I am sorry that people may be displaced out of Miami, but AA has ran this RIF wrong in every direction. They could have done MANY things that would have made this easier on many people and used the bankruptcy crutch or what ever. They chose to run this as bad as they possibly could have, it could not have been run any worse.

i agree with you, american is truly showing how it feels towards it employees by not giving them any info about whats going on. probly the reason the rif was screwed up is because it was done by a company in asia, aa cant even do there own dirty work. i am x twa and rifs were never this screwed up you went where your seniority would let you go. we didnt have a junority list. now you got 20 yr aa techs bumping to osm and have guys at dwh with 2001 sen.

 

[Bob Owens]

What can you expect. You always put your zeal to screw the airline in front of the membership. You'd rather have the airline spend money even if it means 7 people have to be moved instead of 2. Wow.

No its more about that we should someday really practice being like a Union and apply seniority, like most other Union carriers do. Here we bend over backwards to save the company money, make up all sorts of excuses for the company such as "inconviencing fewer people" even if it means violating seniority and sending a senior man to a place he does not want to be while a junior man occupies a place where he wants to be.

Like I said if they had to move 7, and pay the $12k to each , to eliminate 1 head its more cost effective to keep the head.

And yes I would rather put disincentives in place to thwart RIFS than give concessions and hope that we price ourselves so cheaply its not worth outsourcing. Once again you come out on the side of anything that saves the company money while pretending to be about supporting the members.

The fact is we should change the rules to what best serves the entire membership, but it cant be done when there is a RIF going on. It has to be done when there is no RIF going on. It would be unreasonable to expect a Local to agree to change the rules in the middle of this where more of the people he represents would get hurt. Naturally each Local will want what best serves their members interests. Lets take AFW and DFW. Sure now some in AFW would like to have a one station agreement or be able to bump the Junior guy in DFW, Guys with some seniority may have gone to AFW to get the weekend off because they could not hold that at DFW but for the last twenty years nobody cared and the Juniority system has been in place as long as I've been here. When they chose to go they knew, or should have known, the rules, screwed up or not. I've heard some blast DFW for not being willing to change the rules now, but years back when they used to Red Circle the shops in the base and Line guys were Riffed to the street that was OK. So this is what it is. Screwed up, but the time to fix it has to come when nobody is facing a RIF so more objectivity can be used in the decision making process and not each guy looking out for what their members are facing at the moment.

 

[Bob Owens]

How do you know no one selected SJU? Is there a list for union members to see? If not, how do you know???

There's a list that lists all the options that people selected. Its an excell spreadsheet and not that easy to read. It was sent to the Presidents, its not secret but were asked not to post it, some of us sent it out to our boards and stewards if someone wants to look at it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Under the AMFA CBA at NWA, if you were RIF'd at your station, you chose any location where your seniority could take you. The caveat being that you had to take out the junior person at the station. You could not bump a guy on day shift, weekends off just because you had more seniority. Generally, nobody moved until all the bumping was over.

Of course, at one point we had a no layoff clause (did not mean you could not be bumped, just that you would not hit the street if you chose to exercise your seniority). We ended up with like 20 some extra guys at BOS and LGA because they were the junior stations and they chose to not hit the street.

It was likely the same way under the IAM.

 

[lpbrian]

And that's a problem. Selfishness.

Beyond that, does it make good sense to have a guy with more seniority bumped to OSM and another station and then work next to a guy with less seniority and full AMT pay?

That's sorry union representation and bad business !!

 

[lpbrian]

Selfishness rocks!

 

[lpbrian]

All the sudden we here at DFW are the villans when it was folks at TUL and AFW who voted for this stupid contract. You reap what you sow.

 

[AA89]

AFW has consistently voted with the line stations and did so on this contract. Don't let the facts get in the way of your childishness here.