Safety Question

[planeirish]

If you do load planning and say you have 200 bags in cargo bin and calculate that for weight and balance and bags are not loaded, would the missing weight compromise the flying or handling of the aircraft?

Does it matter about the type of aircraft such as the "Barbee Jets". It seems bags get left off them all the time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Weight - you'd be using a higher than necessary take-of speed (V1, Vr, & V2) and landing speed (Vref) than necessary for your actual weight. If you had to abort the takeoff at high speed (say just below V1) you'd be going faster, but the acceleration and stopping distances would be shorter than they would be for the calculated (heavier) weight. Purely a guess, but probably a wash. [add comment] Upon reflection, you'd be better off. The required runway length for the actual weight would be less than for the false heavier weight, meaning that you'd have a bigger safety margin than you thought.

Balance (CG) - here the worst case would be to only load part of the bags or misload them (say bags only in the aft or front bin). That could throw the CG out of limits, which wouldn't be good.

One more item on weight - since you'd be lighter than the weight & balance shows, you could be using a lower cruise altitude than necessary. Not a safety item, just burning extra fuel for nothing.

All this said, it's my understanding that the bag count doesn't come from how many bags are supposed to be on the flight but from how many bags were actually loaded on the flight.

Jim

 

[D M G]

All this said, it's my understanding that the bag count doesn't come from how many bags are supposed to be on the flight but from how many bags were actually loaded on the flight.

[post="260779"][/post]​

Jim is correct.

When the Ramp Agents pull up the load plan for a flight it will show the total weight of cargo that can be loaded and the minimum and the maximum weight each cargo bin can hold. Just because a load plan shows that you can load 200 bags doesn't mean that's what was loaded. Different A/C have different Max Take Off Weights (MTOW), and after you deduct things like A/C weight, fuel, and pax, you're left with a maximum weight for cargo. After loading the A/C the Ramp Agent will put the numbers into the computer showing what was loaded and the cargo bin it was loaded into. The Agent then 'closes the flight out' in the computer and this info is sent to the cockpit. As long as you don't exceed the MTOW or cargo bin Min/Max the flight will 'close out' and there shouldn't be any problems.

As far as bags being intentionally left off it's usually a MTOW issue. You can get a few more bags on by doing things like reducing fuel, estimate burn before takeoff, or get a kid count, but you have to be at/under the MTOW. Pax go on the flight before bags.

 

[diogenes]

Actually, the gate is supposed to solicit volunteers before removing bags for w&b. Like those poor guys don't have enough to do!

Y'all have described mainline procedure well, and it generally happens that way. The only error I see is a lot of folks can't get military duffle weights (70 lbs) into SABRE right. SABRE defaults to standard (30 lbs) bag weights, and you have to override the computer to get the duffles right. As a result, there have been a few overweight/out of CG situations.

Now express is a whole 'nother world.

At mainline, the bag room agent enters the bag count, the ramp agent loads and verifies what was loaded where, and the ops agent closes the info out to CLP (in small stations, what with staffing lately, the same guy does all three functions :down: ). Lots of people looking over each other's shoulders. Moreover, the w&b calculations are computerized, and the record is maintained.

At express, the ramp agent fills out the cargo portion of the ramp manifest, and the crew does the w&b manually.

And with the gross load limitations of the lawn darts, I'd bet all the tea in China the w&b gets gundecked on occasion.

The station maintains a copy of the manual w&b. It used to be for 30 days; now it is supposed to be 24 hours. An RJ auditor flat out told me the change was to reduce the paper trail the FAA could follow.

 

[D M G]

The only error I see is a lot of folks can't get military duffle weights (70 lbs) into SABRE right. SABRE defaults to standard (30 lbs) bag weights, and you have to override the computer to get the duffles right. As a result, there have been a few overweight/out of CG situations.

[post="260810"][/post]​

Agents were told to count each military duffle bag as two regular bags instead of screwing around with Sabre. The average bag weight used is so far off on some flights it's a joke.

 

[xoxo]

I just have a comment on the PHL express ramp people and their "bag" count. Can any of them even count? Not trying to be mean, but, their count is always off. The pilots have to go down to the cargo bin sometimes and make sure they are counting correctly. One time we had a count of 0..now how hard is ZERO bags to count. Well, when we got to where we were going I counted the bags as they were offloaded. "25" bags. DUH!!! Did they not see there were 25 bags down there. Ever since then, I am very skeptical about the MAA rampers. Just recently they tried to add more bags after the paperwork was finished. We were already very heavy and we had to leave some bags behind, and they tried to throw on some more. The captain had to go down and tell them to recount and take off those bags. Where do they get those people.???

JUST MY 2 CENTS!

 

[D M G]

Where do they get those people.???

[post="260865"][/post]​

If you have a pulse you have a 99.9% chance of being hired.

They opened, I mean reopened, the local recruiting center. The recruiting center was open for almost three years before 9/11, so it's not a new concept in PHL.

I've read on here that over 150 have been hired in PHL, 50 more in training now, and another 150 ready to start training. In about a month the company somehow managed to find over 350 people that they felt were qualified to be hired. When the old recruiting center was open it would take two years to find 350 qualified applicants, so what does that tell you? They're hiring people that are borderline illiterate and others that just don't give a rats a** once they're on the job.

The upside is that they're being fired or quitting almost as fast as being hired. They fired about 10 in PHL two weeks ago. One guy was late 12 out of his first 15 shifts. The best I've heard about was the guy who had off on Thursday/Friday and called out sick on Wednesday and Saturday giving him a four day weekend. One week he did this and flew to the islands (SJU?) and the following week he did it again and flew to the west coast (SFO?).

 

[diogenes]

Agents were told to count each military duffle bag as two regular bags instead of screwing around with Sabre. The average bag weight used is so far off on some flights it's a joke.

[post="260862"][/post]​

I sure hope whoever told agents that gets a nice little chat from the Feds one day. But I'll bet 'they' didn't tell you in writing, and if an incident occurs, the agent will be left holding the bag.

Moreover, the override is a piece of cake. Why not do it according to policy, and save yourself the grief? Counting a duffle as 2 bags is still a 10 lb shortfall. Assume 100 duffles on a flight (happens frequently), that's a 1,000 lb difference. Certainly affects CG, and with 90% load factors, can be a weight issue, as well.

With regards to the ABW, you sir, are absolutely correct. 30 lbs are the light ones these days.

 

[diogenes]

Just recently they tried to add more bags after the paperwork was finished. We were already very heavy and we had to leave some bags behind, and they tried to throw on some more. The captain had to go down and tell them to recount and take off those bags. Where do they get those people.???

JUST MY 2 CENTS!

[post="260865"][/post]​

Probably from the same place they get folks that tell the fueler to pump 8,000 lbs on board and show 7,000 on the w&b.

 

[tug_slug]

I've read on here that over 150 have been hired in PHL, 50 more in training now, and another 150 ready to start training. In about a month the company somehow managed to find over 350 people that they felt were qualified to be hired. When the old recruiting center was open it would take two years to find 350 qualified applicants, so what does that tell you? They're hiring people that are borderline illiterate and others that just don't give a rats a** once they're on the job.

[post="260875"][/post]​

Do you realize the problem's that are going to occur by bringing so many new people at virtually the same time?

Not only do you have a disgruntled senior agent that could care less about whether a bags makes its connecting flight or not but do you think that same agent is going to take the time to show a new hire how things are done once the newbie is released and expected to perform the job they've supposedly been trained to do?

 

[Hope777]

Hey, we often gets bags after the paperwork is complete, just do the revision. They do have a place for that on your paperwork. The time it took him to go down stairs and tello the ramp guys to pull the bags, he or his F/O could have done the paperwork. If you were over MTOW, that is a different story. The problem here is our Mainline boys have never had to do paper work because a lowly ramp agent did it or now CLP they dont like doing it twice. NOW AT MDA IT'S YOUR JOB and unless you have a W/B problem, do the Damm revison.

 

[diogenes]

You ever seen how long w&b takes on a lawn dart?

Your are correct, though. No reason the paperwork shouldn't be right, and every reason it should.

Speaking as a former ramp rat who used to work up 8 w&b's at a time, when all you had was the manuals and an adding machine.

 

[Hope777]

W & B is not all that hard.
Some of the pilots seem to make it more difficult then it is.
We use to have a Charter every saturday from Redding Pa to Orlando. The crew would beg us to do the W & B at our station prior to the aircraft even getting to Redding. But, I keep forgetting that ALL the STATIONS except the HUBS have to do manual W & B in the event of computer outagges. Can't wait until the computers go down and a contract vendor tries to do it. Hope my family is NOT on that aircraft.

 

[xoxo]

Hey, we often gets bags after the paperwork is complete, just do the revision. They do have a place for that on your paperwork. The time it took him to go down stairs and tello the ramp guys to pull the bags, he or his F/O could have done the paperwork. If you were over MTOW, that is a different story. The problem here is our Mainline boys have never had to do paper work because a lowly ramp agent did it or now CLP they dont like doing it twice. NOW AT MDA IT'S YOUR JOB and unless you have a W/B problem, do the Damm revison.

[post="261038"][/post]​

It was already overweight, we could not take anymore bags. That is why the captain was pissed because they tried to be slick and put more on AFTER every thing was done. Right before they shut the cargo bin. What are you MAA rampers in phl trying to do? You need to do your job correctly and safely before someone gets hurt. These are million dollar aircrafts, not your $5,000 dollar broken down car. Just do your job right and there would not be a problem. I do not know if anyone knows this, other than the flight crews, but PHL Express terminal is the ONLY place this stuff has been going on. What does that tell you? They need to fix this problem in PHILLY because it is unacceptable.

 

[Hope777]

As I said, if you have a W & B problem that is one thing, but over the last year or so, the MDA Pilots are too Damm Lazy to do the damm revison to the W & B.