Station Weight & Balance VS Centralized Load Planning (CLP)
- Thread starter Weight&Balance
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kao
Senior
- Aug 3, 2005
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We are currently CSRs that do weight and balance also....so when CLP steps in...we will be back upstairs so to speak...they get away with it as we do not do it more than 80 percent of our shift so it does not violate anything contact wise---I think!!! Now, since we are under a contract....it is confusing....we have a contract ramp crew that currently handles all east flights....we have been told eventually they will handle west when we get CLP incorporated. Sad because I actually enjoy the sometimes chaos in operations but... DP says we should all be glad we have jobs??!
OP
- Aug 12, 2004
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- Thread Starter
- #18
More than 5-10 mins...That's a good one why don't you ask the pilots who wait and wait and wait. True there are times ramp or pax service is late putting the info in but there are no calls intiated by CLP to minimize the on runway delays. The only time that CLP calls the station is when a dispatch gets a message or phone call from the pilot or ATC desk at east OCC. Then CLP's hand is forced to call the station. CLP should monitor their flights and know that flight is CLT are off the gate 10-15 mins with out generating the numbers. Just imagine a tight quartered place like LGA or PHL where the delays are more an impact. CLP make our pilots and customers wait. That is why they should just take the technology to the station and make the station load planner responsible if he/she delays a flight.
I work in an East Ramp Tower who deals with CLP every day. The Ladies and Gentlemen who work there are a pleasure to deal with in terms of politeness, courtsey, and helpfulness, but that is where my compliments end. I spend so many 2-3 minute phone calls that would have required a 10-20 second Sabre entry if WB was in the station. Some weeks I have as many as 50 flights that the fuel on board of the inbound flight is more than the planned fuel for the outbound flight and CLP does not catch it. Sometimes I catch it and call to have it updated, often times the flight crew catch it when they recieve their WB and the fuel is incorrect. If I was doing the WB myself I gurantee you that would be something I would check/catch every time. I think it is often missed in CLP because each agent has so many flights they are working at the same time. In my Ramp Tower we have a dedicated position for the Shuttle that I often work and on the PM Shift. On weekday late afternoons/early evenings. especially Wed/Thur a Shuttle 319 (cap 120) booked to 85-90 will go out full or close due to the nature of the Shuttle product and it has been this way for years. Yet the majority of the time CLP will plan the flight for less than it is booked. For example LGA-BOS at 1700 is booked to 90 so they plan for 82-85, I know it will go out full, it does go out full, but CLP still don't seem to understand the concept of the Shuttle product. I gave up on trying to explain to them as the standard answer is its all based on historty and the history says it will go out with 82-85. Well the history is flawed because the Shuttle has been like this since the planes said Eastern on the side. And now because the pax count is more than 10 off the planned count instead of the busy gate agent making a simple pax count closeout entry has to call CLP often delaying the crew getting their WB and sometimes delaying takeoff. I do not want to see any of these fine folks loose their jobs but the WB should be back in station or possibly in the cockpit like B6 and PSA as previous posters described.
Respectfully
LGA777
Respectfully
LGA777
I don't know what west uses but here are my impressions of CLP and Sabre.
I am amazed at how close the preliminary numbers are when compared to the final close out. 95% of the time they are right on the money. Occasionally they will differ usually due to an earlier cancellation, weather change, etc.
We don't usually have to wait very long for the final numbers unless somebody hasn't closed the flight out.
All on all, I like CLP. I've spoken with the guys on numerous occasions. If there is a weight restriction just let the captain know. I've been able to resolve them most of the time with a different flap setting or changing fuel loads. Not a biggie...
It's not just the W/B though. I like the performance numbers being down to a gnats hair, not somebodies best guesstimate.
I am amazed at how close the preliminary numbers are when compared to the final close out. 95% of the time they are right on the money. Occasionally they will differ usually due to an earlier cancellation, weather change, etc.
We don't usually have to wait very long for the final numbers unless somebody hasn't closed the flight out.
All on all, I like CLP. I've spoken with the guys on numerous occasions. If there is a weight restriction just let the captain know. I've been able to resolve them most of the time with a different flap setting or changing fuel loads. Not a biggie...
It's not just the W/B though. I like the performance numbers being down to a gnats hair, not somebodies best guesstimate.
DHG750R
Member
Having worked W&B in the days when everything was a manual , to the pre-SABRE days to teaching the Ops/ramp side of SABRE. I can say I agree with LGA777. While the people in CLP are some of the nicest ( many of them came from our ranks in the statons ) I belive that if we had the same software and standardized training that is now being used by CLP . The station could do just as good and possibly better when it comes to W&B.
Gone would be the days of making several phone calls to resolve a problem and the end product delivered to the flightcrews would be just as accurate but without the delays and pulling out of line waiting for numbers to come across.
My experience is there were and probably still are some who's priority was protecting CLP and the cost of efficiency and turning a deaf ear to the thought that the stations could do it better.
OP
- Aug 12, 2004
- 54
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- Thread Starter
- #22
Having worked W&B in the days when everything was a manual , to the pre-SABRE days to teaching the Ops/ramp side of SABRE. I can say I agree with LGA777. While the people in CLP are some of the nicest ( many of them came from our ranks in the statons ) I belive that if we had the same software and standardized training that is now being used by CLP . The station could do just as good and possibly better when it comes to W&B.
Gone would be the days of making several phone calls to resolve a problem and the end product delivered to the flightcrews would be just as accurate but without the delays and pulling out of line waiting for numbers to come across.
My experience is there were and probably still are some who's priority was protecting CLP and the cost of efficiency and turning a deaf ear to the thought that the stations could do it better.
Could it be Big AL? or The head of OCC? They would be the iron curtain CLP's hides behind
IMO, CLP, while staffed with nice folks, is a waste of precious time.
We HAD computerized w&b prior to CLP. If there was a problem, it was resolved on the spot - no phone calls, no arguing about what can and can't be done, no turf wars. Best of all, the flight would not close out if the ac was overweight or OOB - a nice safety factor.
Moreover, I found the service from CLP on grossed out flights to be uneven, at best. Some guys had worked the field before, and were pretty sharp (still had to waste time with the phone call, though). Some hadn't worked in the field, and they ranged from clueless to arrogant.
Clueless was when they wanted all of the weight in the fwd bin of a 737-300, even though a casket was staged for the flight. You could talk them out of it if they were merely clueless.
Arrogant was when they told you you MUST load the casket forward. I could play passive/aggressive too, and told them we had already loaded it aft, and any delay rearranging things would be theirs. Magically, the plane balanced.
It got to the point where I did a rough w&b on grossed a/c, loaded the a/c to the limits I knew it would operate, and let CLP sort it out.
We HAD computerized w&b prior to CLP. If there was a problem, it was resolved on the spot - no phone calls, no arguing about what can and can't be done, no turf wars. Best of all, the flight would not close out if the ac was overweight or OOB - a nice safety factor.
Moreover, I found the service from CLP on grossed out flights to be uneven, at best. Some guys had worked the field before, and were pretty sharp (still had to waste time with the phone call, though). Some hadn't worked in the field, and they ranged from clueless to arrogant.
Clueless was when they wanted all of the weight in the fwd bin of a 737-300, even though a casket was staged for the flight. You could talk them out of it if they were merely clueless.
Arrogant was when they told you you MUST load the casket forward. I could play passive/aggressive too, and told them we had already loaded it aft, and any delay rearranging things would be theirs. Magically, the plane balanced.
It got to the point where I did a rough w&b on grossed a/c, loaded the a/c to the limits I knew it would operate, and let CLP sort it out.
OP
- Aug 12, 2004
- 54
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- Thread Starter
- #24
Dio,
I could not agree more with your reply .CLP does have many flaws and the time you waste on the phone with CLP trying to plead with them to correct things, could be better appplied to getting the flight or the next flight ready if the function was to stay in the station. CLP won't correct passenger count changes. They tell you "I unlocked the flight.Have the gate change it ." When you tell them that you can't locate the agent their reply is " It's not my problem it's a station issue." What a joke! What a disservice to our customers both external and internal.Come on let's keep the voting going and send a message to Big Al that this idea needs to go the way of the F100 into retirement.
If you can't find someone other than "Big Al" to get the message to, don't waste your time by typing. "Big Al" has NEVER listened to anyone in the 'rank & file'. "Big Al" only does what "Big Al" wants to do. I doubt he even listens to DP.
OP
- Aug 12, 2004
- 54
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- Thread Starter
- #26
RedOne
You have a valid point. Al has himself insulated very well. Others take the flak that comes in his direction. One could only hope that Tempe looks at the delays due to the CLP system. You have to hear the pilots call for the numbers when they are told they are not available most just OH GREAT! some really get PO'd and others just say well if they don't get them soon they will come back to gate. I saw a thread started by someone called CLPsupervisor he points all the blame back on the stations granted the ramp has to push the aircraft then walk in and enter the numbers in the mask or the gate gets overwhelmed with DB's or DFQ's from passengers and forgets to enter the count. But the east station ops has no way of telling the flights don't have their numbers. The FAA is really PO'd about the backlog on places such as LGA,PHL where you just don't have the space to park someone to the side while they iron out the W&B issue or lack of. CLP should monitor their flights and maybe it would work but as long as they don't push the problems on the stations CLP will just delay flights. W&B in the west stations we know when our flights are ready to go ,granted they can't leave they gate because of the trim sheets for their W&B needs to be delivered to them. But could you imagine if CLP's technology was placed in the station operations hands (yes all ops would have to be certified to work it FAA mandating .) Also they would be able to perform manual W&B in the event of system outage .The only phone calls would be to dispatch,the gate and the ramp which also the ramp can be a radio call.
h34r:[quote name='Weight&Balance' date='Aug 25 2006, 07:37 PM' post='409976
You are in error when you say east has no way of knowing if the flt has its numbers. We have an entry that tells us exactly what part of the numbers are missing.
Most of the numbers delays are caused by the station.
In my experience its the gate agents failure to enter there final count. Also most ops agents dont work outside during the operation, as Ive seen at my west counterparts. It appears the west management dont feel the ops guys need to be in ops to comuicate to the a/c as well as man the phones when things are going to crap.
You are in error when you say east has no way of knowing if the flt has its numbers. We have an entry that tells us exactly what part of the numbers are missing.
Most of the numbers delays are caused by the station.
In my experience its the gate agents failure to enter there final count. Also most ops agents dont work outside during the operation, as Ive seen at my west counterparts. It appears the west management dont feel the ops guys need to be in ops to comuicate to the a/c as well as man the phones when things are going to crap.
Au contraire!
At one of the oldest and most senior east stations, the ops agent DID work the ramp.
Many was the time the ops agent pushed the flight AND closed the w&b to CLP.
At one of the oldest and most senior east stations, the ops agent DID work the ramp.
Many was the time the ops agent pushed the flight AND closed the w&b to CLP.
ok first off the topic starter doesnt even know what is goin on on the west side and it sounds like hes from the west side.
Im from Las Vegas and worked in a FS on the west side, the dispatcher sends the Team Lead a dispatch release and each TL plans his or her own flt so they know what they are dealing with and can take last minute mail/cargo. the only time they lock things out are in a weight restriction and they themselves know exactly what the restriction is, not someone over the phone or sending the a piece of paper telling them what it is.
PHX on my mind is CLP. The dispatcher sends the W/B person the numbers and the print the TL a load plan.
On the east side it sounds like our W/B department. They plan the flt and whatever isnt planned 45 minutes prior doesnt go. CLP on the east side is simialr to CO a pre-plan is given and load to the pre-plan. To me the TL never really gets involved but counting bags and cargo and mail and calling it in. Thats it.
A true TL and W/B person does it themselves pre-plans and inputs the final numbers. In Vegas and all west stations thats how its run. In PHX and on the East you have two people doing a one man job. And sorry to all you easties but you do a poor job of it too, and its so easy for you. Every load we get from you is a$$ back wards and locals and CNX are mixed.
We could use more people on the ramp loading the bags than in an A/C office doing the job of one person.
Im from Las Vegas and worked in a FS on the west side, the dispatcher sends the Team Lead a dispatch release and each TL plans his or her own flt so they know what they are dealing with and can take last minute mail/cargo. the only time they lock things out are in a weight restriction and they themselves know exactly what the restriction is, not someone over the phone or sending the a piece of paper telling them what it is.
PHX on my mind is CLP. The dispatcher sends the W/B person the numbers and the print the TL a load plan.
On the east side it sounds like our W/B department. They plan the flt and whatever isnt planned 45 minutes prior doesnt go. CLP on the east side is simialr to CO a pre-plan is given and load to the pre-plan. To me the TL never really gets involved but counting bags and cargo and mail and calling it in. Thats it.
A true TL and W/B person does it themselves pre-plans and inputs the final numbers. In Vegas and all west stations thats how its run. In PHX and on the East you have two people doing a one man job. And sorry to all you easties but you do a poor job of it too, and its so easy for you. Every load we get from you is a$$ back wards and locals and CNX are mixed.
We could use more people on the ramp loading the bags than in an A/C office doing the job of one person.
OP
- Aug 12, 2004
- 54
- 0
- Thread Starter
- #30
NevadaHP
The CLP I referring to is East sides Central Load Planning. That is the reason for the poll not PHX. Regardless the load planning process for W&B should be conducted between the dispatcher,crew,and the station operations weight and balance group. Not a disconnected faction like the east sides CLP.
