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Star-Telegram Article

AV1,

That quote wasn't cherry picked from 100 other talking heads, many with an axe to grind with labor, it came from the CEO of AMR Horton.

The company offer to APA was said to save $100 million of the $800 million claimed competitive disadvantage AA is said to suffer compared to the other legacy carriers. Exactly how much of that difference should the pilots have paid and how low should pilot salaries go to make yourself feel better?
 
I can only say that based on history in the industry there is definitely a correlation between the rancor between labor and management going into BK and the size of the "concessions" that management seeks - and almost always obtains - during the BK process.
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This is going to be a very difficult and painful process and my heart goes out to the many good people at AA who are going to be severely harmed through it all.
 
AV1,

That quote wasn't cherry picked from 100 other talking heads, many with an axe to grind with labor, it came from the CEO of AMR Horton.

The company offer to APA was said to save $100 million of the $800 million claimed competitive disadvantage AA is said to suffer compared to the other legacy carriers. Exactly how much of that difference should the pilots have paid and how low should pilot salaries go to make yourself feel better?

Articles aren't cherry picked. I believe Arpey himself said this. Remember, he was in charge and didn't want to file bankruptcy. Maybe, if the pilot negotiators weren't so tired and maybe spent more time actually negotiating, this might have been adverted.
 
At this point I could care less what you believe in your delusional world.

Later.
 
AV1,

It sucks for everybody. Now back up a little and read this quote (I lost the source). Apparently Horton seems to disagree with you.

"Talks with the pilots stalled Nov. 14, when the Allied Pilots Association declined to send the companys last offer to members for a vote, saying it would clearly be rejected. The action wasnt what led to the bankruptcy decision, Horton said."

Horton also said that it wasn't just ONE thing that led to the filing, meaning LABOR...But rest assured that LABOR will bear the brunt of the reorganization.
 
The writer of this article is an A## hole, doesn't waste time checking facts. Last year he wrote an article on American and quoted and used a picture of a mechanic that had passed away! Don't waste your time putting to much thought into Star-Telegram articles they generally write what AMR prefers them to write
 
So far it seems that you guys are being led down the same path we were. The company putting out all sorts of stuff that pits one work group against another.

That article you referenced could have been written in 2003 with the name USAirways in place of AA.

I am still looking for that USAir pilot that "Averages 300k a year" that the company put out in a big press release!

At the time out of a pilot group of 6400 or so, the top 50 or so pilots flying International with 30+ years of seniority might have been making just a touch over 200k. Most F/O's were making from 40 to 70k and the Capts were 130 to 150k. Pretty good money to be sure, but a far far cry from the 300k "Average" the company put out in that article.

I wish you guys the best, having been through it I would not wish it on a CEO.......well, maybe a CEO....but nobody else! 😀
Good post. I remember just before the BK USAirways management did a great job of turning most of the other employee groups against the pilots. They convinced the employees that all of the problems were due to the pilots and many bought in to that philosophy. I actually had more that one dispatcher ask me why we pilots did not just give in to the company's demands to save the company. After we gave and gave one of the same people had the nerve to ask me why we gave in because for every pilot job that went away 8 other employees lost their jobs. Only after Steve Wolf, and several BK's did most of the other employees figure out that blaming each other was counter productive.
Regards,


Bob
 
AV1,

That quote wasn't cherry picked from 100 other talking heads, many with an axe to grind with labor, it came from the CEO of AMR Horton.

Actually anyone thinking that at this point of the game Horton's comments are genuine, is delusional.
Horton is and will be doing and saying what needs to be at this point in time.
In time the truth one way or another will show its ugly face.
 
As in before the Bankruptcy filing. I wonder what that pilots position is at this time. I hope that the pilots do well under the conditiions the bankrutcy judge will impose.

Buck, no regrets here. From what I am reading on our message board, nobody has any regrets there either.

The bottom line is, we were faced with accepting the company's proposals, or taking our chances in bankruptcy court. This is an issue that has been studied for months, and coming at a very large expense of outside industry consultants, attorneys, and other groups that have been through bankruptcies (such as DAL and UAL ALPA).

When all was said and done, we chose to take our chances in bankruptcy. That tells you how wonderful the company's "offer" was. It also tells you how sincere the company was about staying out of bankruptcy. Bankruptcy filings don't just happen on a whim. It takes months and months of planning. In addition, under 1113c of the BK code, to void contractual agreements the company MUST show that they TRIED to negotiate in good faith prior to making the request. What better way to leave a paper trail showing that you "negotiated" than to serve up proposal after proposal that you KNOW will be laughed at. I'm sure an offer from AA that would have outsourced thousands of mechanics jobs would have been warmly embraced by the mechanics, right? It was no different in our ranks.

There is a decade long paper trail of managerial ineptitude at American Airlines. If I were an executive at AA, I would surely try to deflect blame and get the attention off of my failure. Look at how easy it was. One mention of a negotiating triviality has everyone spooled into the ceiling and the cause of the bankruptcy filing now has nothing to do with mismanagement. Oh no. It was all caused by a request to sleep away from noise at layover hotels.
 
I am not an AA pilot but Some things to remember as you see all the crap your company is going to be putting out in their BK PR campaign:

Pilots ONLY get paid when the aircraft is moving. They do NOT get paid for preflight, boarding, post flight, checking weather, getting fuel, between flights during the day, weather delays on the gate, or maint delays.

We are normally "on duty" about 12 hours to get paid for about 7(or less). On duty refers to being responsible for the aircraft and all the things I listed above. That is the same as telling a gate agent they HAVE to be at work and working but they will only get paid for the time they are actually boarding passengers, or driving the jet way to or away from the aircraft. Or a mechanic that he only gets paid when he is actually turning a wrench Nothing else.

On a normal 4 day trip you will be gone from home and "At work" for 72 hours. We receive per diem (food expense)for the 72 hours, industry average is about 2 bucks an hour, well below the "govt. rates" . However as far as pay for the work you do while gone for the 72 hours on a 4 day trip a pilot will be paid for 16 to 20 hours.(Only the flight time) So for 4 days of work, they got just a hair over 2 days of pay at 8 hours a day for a gate agent or other employee.

In a normal month I am gone from home about 17 to 20 days a month. And when I say gone I mean "several states away from home" gone. That is 17 to 20 hotel stays a month, every month. At the end of the month after those 17 to 20 nights away from family and home I will get a paycheck for 78 to 85 hours, depending on the trips flown that month.

Pilots are limited to 1000 hours a year by the FAR's in flight time (with slight variations) That equates to 83 hours a month max. And can only fly 30 hours in any seven day period per the FAR's. So it is impossible for a pilot to make more than 30 hours of pay in any one week, with the exception that dead heading (riding in the back) does not count as part of the 30.

Additionally pilots must attend recurrent training every six months, or in the case of the new methods, 3 days once a year in classroom and SImulators with unpaid home internet classes every other month. This is normally in addition to the 17 to 20 days away from home per month.

Pilots must have a medical evaluation every 6 months and if over 40 years of age an EKG once a year. This is paid out of the pilots pocket, but it is tax deductible. In my case where I live it equals $380 a year. If I fail a medical I am out of a job.

To the poster that is all wound up about the ice machine thing at hotels, well it is a minor thing in the contract and is probably one of those "get it if we can" items. But remember the Pilots and flight attendants literally spend more time sleeping in hotel beds than they do in their own beds at home. Next month instead of going to and from home everyday go stay at a hotel for 17 nights during the month. I bet you will be wanting to request a room that is not beside the ice maker also.

Not trying to start a fight, we have seen this before, and the company will use the publics lack of knowledge about how pilots and flight attendants are paid and their travel schedule to make them the "evil" ones.
 
Strikeforce- Sorry, your part of the problem. People who believe it is the companies sole purpose is to screw its employees any way it can. People like yourself need to get rid of that big chip on your shoulder.

Management AV1.......I'm far from the problem and I really don't walk around with a chip on my shoulders. I look at what this company has done over the last 9 years and it's pretty clear to any of the 88,000 employees that MANAGEMENT really didn't manage the business. I was all for helping this company turn around back in 2003 because I didn't believe BK was the best way forward. Boy, was I wrong! AA recklessly spent the 1.6B of employee savings, plus they incurred billions more of debt.....they continuously lost hundreds of millions quarter after quarter, and management just thought things were hunky dorry.....well now you see where the drunkin party got us, and can you and others honestly sit there and really blame labor.....I'm talking ALL employees....for having a chip on our shoulders????? The changes AA will make in BK should have been made in 2003 voluntarily, and not under court supervision. That's at least what my understanding was back in 2003 in exchange for 1.6B in concessions. The company renegged on their end of the deal and the employees were the only ones that took it in the shorts....now fast forward almost 9 years and it's the same thing all over again, and you want ME to be proud that I work for a bunch of losers at the helm....give me a break and take your sentiments somewhere else.
 
Articles aren't cherry picked. I believe Arpey himself said this. Remember, he was in charge and didn't want to file bankruptcy. Maybe, if the pilot negotiators weren't so tired and maybe spent more time actually negotiating, this might have been adverted.
correct if I'm wrong, but I believe the pilot group and AA had been in negotiations since 2006 and only just recently did the company make the pilots an offer.....and that's because somehow the pilots got leverage over the company when pilots retired in masses. So, I wouldn't blame the pilots for causing the BK. Management spent 5 years stalling, how about placing MOST of the blame on management!!!
 
It's people like AV1, E, Overspeed, WT, FWAA and others that are most likely not AA employees, or are management employees that are on this board for the simple purpose of stirring the pot and steering blame towards labor....just like the gov't, govenor of wisc, and all the other pro business anti-union republicans. If you want US to have a contructive conversation please take your anti-labor conversation to a management biased forum, and then you can show your intelligence, while salivating at the mouth, to the people that most likely caused the demise of American Airlines!!!!
 
correct if I'm wrong, but I believe the pilot group and AA had been in negotiations since 2006 and only just recently did the company make the pilots an offer.....and that's because somehow the pilots got leverage over the company when pilots retired in masses. So, I wouldn't blame the pilots for causing the BK. Management spent 5 years stalling, how about placing MOST of the blame on management!!!
Yea, the pilots got leverage alright..lol...and where has that leverage got all of us? <_<
I think the blame lies in many area's, no one is excluded!
 

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