Star-Telegram Article

[Mach85ER]

It's people like AV1, E, Overspeed, WT, FWAA and others that are most likely not AA employees, or are management employees that are on this board for the simple purpose of stirring the pot and steering blame towards labor....just like the gov't, govenor of wisc, and all the other pro business anti-union republicans. If you want US to have a contructive conversation please take your anti-labor conversation to a management biased forum, and then you can show your intelligence, while salivating at the mouth, to the people that most likely caused the demise of American Airlines!!!!

I'd personally take E and FWAAA out of the looney bin. Like it or not they seem to have a more accurate perspective from the dark side 😉 and I don't expect them to blow sunshine up my proverbial skirt just because want bunnies and kittens sliding down my AA career rainbow.

 

[Barfbag]

Maybe they would like to come and tell it to the people in and around the DFW community.

Those living in DFW should have been saving their excess as they have been living in one of AMR lowest cost of living cities.

Those of us in cities like SFO, LAX, NYC, have been living day to day on these meager wages. Maybe a new AMR will restructure the salaries to include a city by city cost of living index.

If the new company is to survive it must include all employees not just DFW.

 

[WorldTraveler]

It's people like AV1, E, Overspeed, WT, FWAA and others that are most likely not AA employees, or are management employees that are on this board for the simple purpose of stirring the pot and steering blame towards labor....just like the gov't, govenor of wisc, and all the other pro business anti-union republicans. If you want US to have a contructive conversation please take your anti-labor conversation to a management biased forum, and then you can show your intelligence, while salivating at the mouth, to the people that most likely caused the demise of American Airlines!!!!

excUUUSE me, but who said this was exclusively a labor based forum and more importantly who said that I - as well as others - are not very much pro-labor.
.
The difference between me and some people is that I develop my perspective by seeing both points of view... there are WAY too many people who can only see labor as the criminal and others who can only see management as the problem.....

you haven't paid much attention to what I have written if you think for one minute that I have given AA/AMR management a free ride and haven't crucified them for alot of things they have done.
.
If you want a forum where you can argue your point against mgmt in isolation, be my guest... but this is not the place for it. and more importantly, it won't accomplish anything. Dealing w/ a healthy dose of reality might well change the way alot of people see the situation.
.
And once again the longer you and others fight managment, the deeper they will cut... I can GUARANTEE it. They have the HATCHET in their hands now... the scalpels have all been put out to pasture.
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I don't relish what you are about ready to go through and I don't wish it on anyone.... pretending that the company doesn't have an enormous amount of power or thinking that labor can really do a whole lot to stop mgmt is foolishness at best.... and the company will very quickly show how serious they are about gaining the upper hand.
History also shows that the vast majority of airline employees WILL show up for work the day after the cuts are announced because the option is to go home and have NO paycheck. Most people are smart enough to realize that as bad as you hate the situation, you take what you have and start figuring out your own personal exit strategy if you don't like what is being offered... and to be sure, there will be many AA people who will and perhaps should decide it is not worth providing their services at the rates AA will pay after the cuts are announced. There are many airline employees who have left the industry during its financial difficulties and managed to rebuild their lives and finances quite well outside the industry.
But they will leave when they have a plan B in place and when it makes financial sense for them to leave - and that won't happen for all people at the same time.

 

[Super FLUF]

Somehow, with the arrogance displayed, I actually believe some of this.

No, it's because you WANT to believe this. You need someone to blame. You have seen one perspective of one part of a story told by a 3rd party and bought into it without question. Hook. Line. Sinker.

You are lazy. Why don't you start asking questions and getting the whole story before popping off and looking like a fool.

 

[strikeforce]

Yea, the pilots got leverage alright..lol...and where has that leverage got all of us? <_<
I think the blame lies in many area's, no one is excluded!

That's true!! many of the rants are blaming the pilots and that's not fair to the pilots. The pilots can turn around and blame the mechanics for rejecting our T/A.....so, where does the blaming game stop???? Let's stop blaming labor because although labor may have had a hand in the demise.....management was clearly at the helm, and it wasn't labor that made those blunderous decisions that caused AA to accumulate 29.5B in debt. AA was party at negotiations when they agreed to offering labor a defined pension plan and retiree medical. It wasn't forced on them by labor. Now, they want to reneg on those deals because just like the gov't, they too couldn't live within their means.

 

[AV1]

Management AV1.......I'm far from the problem and I really don't walk around with a chip on my shoulders. I look at what this company has done over the last 9 years and it's pretty clear to any of the 88,000 employees that MANAGEMENT really didn't manage the business. I was all for helping this company turn around back in 2003 because I didn't believe BK was the best way forward. Boy, was I wrong! AA recklessly spent the 1.6B of employee savings, plus they incurred billions more of debt.....they continuously lost hundreds of millions quarter after quarter, and management just thought things were hunky dorry.....well now you see where the drunkin party got us, and can you and others honestly sit there and really blame labor.....I'm talking ALL employees....for having a chip on our shoulders????? The changes AA will make in BK should have been made in 2003 voluntarily, and not under court supervision. That's at least what my understanding was back in 2003 in exchange for 1.6B in concessions. The company renegged on their end of the deal and the employees were the only ones that took it in the shorts....now fast forward almost 9 years and it's the same thing all over again, and you want ME to be proud that I work for a bunch of losers at the helm....give me a break and take your sentiments somewhere else.

Not management, and have been here for quite awhile in the mechanic position. Just a growing number of employees who never spoke out before and are tired of hearing why certain employees don't want to work today, listen to reason, etc. Today's reason we can't work is bankruptcy, last month it was negotiations, before that it was because somebody didn't smile or say hello to them, etc. After the concessions in 2003, we had the greatest economic cycle in history. Oh, what, that's not true? Fuel is at a all high time high, employment is the the highest, and quite frankly it could be the worst decade for economic activity. I do have a problem with something though, I have a problem with allowing all the maintenance being outsourced to third world countries. If you want to be mad, be mad at the companies that take American jobs and sending them to other countries where they pay something like $2 an hour. That really helps our profession. Quite frankly, my family was pretty satisfied, now a lot of families are going to find out what reality is like because of the gamble pilots will better themselves in bankruptcy.

 

[strikeforce]

excUUUSE me, but who said this was exclusively a labor based forum and more importantly who said that I - as well as others - are not very much pro-labor.
.
The difference between me and some people is that I develop my perspective by seeing both points of view... there are WAY too many people who can only see labor as the criminal and others who can only see management as the problem.....

you haven't paid much attention to what I have written if you think for one minute that I have given AA/AMR management a free ride and haven't crucified them for alot of things they have done.
.
If you want a forum where you can argue your point against mgmt in isolation, be my guest... but this is not the place for it. and more importantly, it won't accomplish anything. Dealing w/ a healthy dose of reality might well change the way alot of people see the situation.
.
And once again the longer you and others fight managment, the deeper they will cut... I can GUARANTEE it. They have the HATCHET in their hands now... the scalpels have all been put out to pasture.
.
I don't relish what you are about ready to go through and I don't wish it on anyone.... pretending that the company doesn't have an enormous amount of power or thinking that labor can really do a whole lot to stop mgmt is foolishness at best.... and the company will very quickly show how serious they are about gaining the upper hand.
History also shows that the vast majority of airline employees WILL show up for work the day after the cuts are announced because the option is to go home and have NO paycheck. Most people are smart enough to realize that as bad as you hate the situation, you take what you have and start figuring out your own personal exit strategy if you don't like what is being offered... and to be sure, there will be many AA people who will and perhaps should decide it is not worth providing their services at the rates AA will pay after the cuts are announced. There are many airline employees who have left the industry during its financial difficulties and managed to rebuild their lives and finances quite well outside the industry.
But they will leave when they have a plan B in place and when it makes financial sense for them to leave - and that won't happen for all people at the same time.

I never said management didn't have power in BK, but management and the creditors still need the 88,000 employees to come to work everyday and take care of it's customers. Now, management has two options....take that hatchet and wipe US out and deal with the bloodbath or deal with US and provide US some relief after taking it in the shorts for 9 years and we'll all be happy to take care of their customers with a smile. If Horton is SMART...he will put the hatchet down and deal with the employees in a fair manner because if he doesn't....WE ALL LOSE, including management! I'm not afraid of losing my job because over 20 years I've accumulated enough skill and training to find a job tomorrow.....but, at what cost???? Do I really want to start at the bottom or ride this shipwreck to the base of the atlantic......right now....I'm sticking it out while putting my resume' together, and I can still blame management for the demise of American Airlines!!!

 

[strikeforce]

Not management, and have been here for quite awhile in the mechanic position. Just a growing number of employees who never spoke out before and are tired of hearing why certain employees don't want to work today, listen to reason, etc. Today's reason we can't work is bankruptcy, last month it was negotiations, before that it was because somebody didn't smile or say hello to them, etc. After the concessions in 2003, we had the greatest economic cycle in history. Oh, what, that's not true? Fuel is at a all high time high, employment is the the highest, and quite frankly it could be the worst decade for economic activity. I do have a problem with something though, I have a problem with allowing all the maintenance being outsourced to third world countries. If you want to be mad, be mad at the companies that take American jobs and sending them to other countries where they pay something like $2 an hour. That really helps our profession. Quite frankly, my family was pretty satisfied, now a lot of families are going to find out what reality is like because of the gamble pilots will better themselves in bankruptcy.

Then, management should have dealt with the greatest economic cycle with layoffs, downsizing the airline and maybe ordering fuel efficient aircraft years ago. Isn't that what Horton's gonna do now???? I think it's too late in the ballgame.....AA has lost market share, it has a demoralized workforce and a not so dependable fleet of gas guzzling airplanes. And, that's my fault???? The employees will be the ultimate losers because that's just the way capitalism works. The greedy bastards at the top don't have to worry about putting food on the table or paying for college....look at Arpey, took him 1 day to be CEO at some other joint. I don't think his family is devestated, do you????? Bob Owens is wrong, we shouldn't be mad....WE SHOULD BE ANGRY at management!!!!!!

 

[FWAAA]

Horton also said that it wasn't just ONE thing that led to the filing, meaning LABOR...But rest assured that LABOR will bear the brunt of the reorganization.

I agree. AA's bankruptcy isn't the fault of anyone at AA. It's not the pilots, it's not the FAs, nor the mechanics or fleet. And it's not because "management has done nothing but fly the airline into the ground." Here's a partial list of blameworthy people/subjects that are all responsible for AA's current predicament:

Osama bin Laden
Mohamed Atta & his 18 fellow piles of excrement
Expensive Oil (instead of the cheap oil we all got used to)
The ability to terminate pensions in bankruptcy but not be liquidated to help pay for them (allowing US, UA, DL and others to remain in business, competing against those attempting to maintain their pension obligations)
George Soros' investment in jetBlue, which has harmed AA substantially
Branson's foreign-owned, US operating airline, Virgin America, which has recently begun to harm AA
Various poor AA management decisions over the years (MD-11s, Fokkers, lotsa hubs started and shutdown, etc)
Management agreeing to new labor agreements in 2001 which turned out to be unsustainable

There are no doubt plenty of others.

 

[Super FLUF]

Quite frankly, my family was pretty satisfied, now a lot of families are going to find out what reality is like because of the gamble pilots will better themselves in bankruptcy.

Yes, it is all our fault. There were absolutely no other factors in AA declaring bankruptcy other than us asking for layover hotel rooms away from ice machines. You cracked the code, all by yourself.

Dude......seek help.

You are allowed to work on airplanes?

That is some scary sheet.

 

[AV1]

Then, management should have dealt with the greatest economic cycle with layoffs, downsizing the airline and maybe ordering fuel efficient aircraft years ago. Isn't that what Horton's gonna do now???? I think it's too late in the ballgame.....AA has lost market share, it has a demoralized workforce and a not so dependable fleet of gas guzzling airplanes. And, that's my fault???? The employees will be the ultimate losers because that's just the way capitalism works. The greedy bastards at the top don't have to worry about putting food on the table or paying for college....look at Arpey, took him 1 day to be CEO at some other joint. I don't think his family is devestated, do you????? Bob Owens is wrong, we shouldn't be mad....WE SHOULD BE ANGRY at management!!!!!!

I give up!! Its our fault, lets quit. Tired of the pity party.

 

[AV1]

Yes, it is all our fault. There were absolutely no other factors in AA declaring bankruptcy other than us asking for layover hotel rooms away from ice machines. You cracked the code, all by yourself.

Dude......seek help.

You are allowed to work on airplanes?

That is some scary sheet.

Just as scary as you flying planes. Oh, wait, the autopilot does that.

 

[eolesen]

I think the following Chinese Proverb sums up all the denial flowing here:


No single raindrop feels it is responsible for the flood.


All the blamestorming in the world isn't going to do y'all any good at this point. Better off just figuring out what your Plan B is going to be.

I see from the banner ad on the website that UPS is hiring holiday workers. Might not be a bad exit strategy for those of you who are totally fed up with AA.

 

[Super FLUF]

Just as scary as you flying planes. Oh, wait, the autopilot does that.

Once again, you have cracked the code. The autopilot flies us to our private beach resort, where we stay for a few days at your union's expense at a 5-star hotel, away from the ice machine. We then fly back on autopilot, arrogantly plotting our destruction of other work groups and counting our stacks of $50s and $100s.

Seek help.

 

[strikeforce]

I give up!! Its our fault, lets quit. Tired of the pity party.

hey, you started this conversation by blaming the pilots and I didn't think it's all their fault.....you were right, blame can be spread everywhere, and I'm not just blaming management....the union leadership isn't immune to the party. The TWU has been an absolute failure to it's membership and if WE have a chance while in BK to rid ourselves of the TWU, let's do it. We'll have to see how hard Little fights to save his soul or ours????? Don't be surprised if you get a T/A within days of meeting with the company.....and if WE reject it, chances will be at 100% that he accepts it on behalf of the membership "because it's in OUR best interest"!!! We'll see in who's best interest it really is???????