Summary of Judge Lane's Ruling

[IORFA]

I now predict that the f/a's will vote no. They for the most part will think the pilots won and APFA will too. I also agree that AA will be able to easily chage their proposal and then game over. Live with the crap for the foreseeable future. Once again a terrible alternative. But again I predict that the majority will be too thick to see it. We are going to lose no doubt about it after this ruling. I just hope that people realize that fact.

 

[jason77]

I now predict that the f/a's will vote no. They for the most part will think the pilots won and APFA will too. I also agree that AA will be able to easily chage their proposal and then game over. Live with the crap for the foreseeable future. Once again a terrible alternative. But again I predict that the majority will be too thick to see it. We are going to lose no doubt about it after this ruling. I just hope that people realize that fact.

I dont think APFA thinks the pilots won.

http://www.apfa.org/content/category/9/17/626/

 

[Bob Owens]

It is clear that all AA has to do is alter the two provisions and submit. Read the very last paragraph.
I see some positive in the mere fact the judge ruled based on these two items.This victory might be temoporary but changing the two to the judge's liking might prove to be a win nonetheless.

Exactly, it forces the company to move toward the pilots before abrogation,then Section 6 kicks in and Section 6 would most likely end up in a PEB (due to industry consolidation and high load factors across the industry) where industry standards are the rule of the day not the companys desires to cut costs to implement a business plan with a $3billion a year profit.(The dreaded Amtrack PEB awarded those workers industry standard plus back pay even though AMTRACK was losing money)

The pilots are fighting to save the profession. The airline industry has reached a point of maturity and consolidation where they are now like the rails of yesteryear, and a large percentage of Rail negotiations end up in PEBs. Thats the future for the legacy carriers as well, we probably will never see a major airline strike again. Whats at stake here is do the pilots of the Industry have their PEBs modeled after the APA contract that the company wants them to accept or does the APA hold out and have their PEB modeled after Delta and Uniteds new contracts?

Thats what they are fighting for. The fact that the Judge did not grant the companys motion is an indication of his reluctance to set off a war between the pilots, more than likely with assistance from the 75% of line mechanics who are about to have a deal imposed on them, and possibly the Flight Attendants. There was no way the Judge would give the pilots a huge victory because it would condemn the APFA vote for rejection, so the decision is laced with subtle threats to try and get the pilots to accept a slightly modified crap deal that will be used as the basis for future PEBS and keep wages across the industry very low for another six years while the airline show record profits. Wall Streets Court will have served it well once again.

As we will see the TWU spin machine is in full swing, claiming that the new deals at UAL and Delta puts them 20% above our pilots. What they are leaving out is thats what they top out at the end of their contracts several years down the road, not now, and we are already 20% behind what UAL and Delta are and UAL starts negotiations for a new deal next month.

 

[TWU informer]

While American claims to seek more broad furlough authority to address unforeseen emergencies, there appears to be no need to do so as the existing agreement includes a force majeure exception which was used by the Company to furlough 2,900 pilots following September 11th. The evidence proffered by American is unclear even as to the amount of savings gained by American’s proposal on furlough, with the evidence suggesting that the savings may be as little as $300,000 a year. (See APA Ex. 412; Roghair Decl. ¶ 85). Thus, American has failed to justify its request for unrestricted furlough by reference to the savings identified in its Business Plan. Finally, American has not justified its request for proposed changes in furlough by identifying comparable provisions in the airline industry.

Again at minimum, our job security elimination would have surely faced the same issue with Judge Lane. Thanks alot Hewitt, Bunch and Carlise, your fear mongering is destructive and unwarranted.

SIGN AN AMFA CARD TODAY!

 

[TWU informer]

I now predict that the f/a's will vote no. They for the most part will think the pilots won and APFA will too. I also agree that AA will be able to easily chage their proposal and then game over. Live with the crap for the foreseeable future. Once again a terrible alternative. But again I predict that the majority will be too thick to see it. We are going to lose no doubt about it after this ruling. I just hope that people realize that fact.

The game will not "be over", it has reached it's peak for managment, but not anywhere near over as far as the APA is concerned, not by a long shot.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

The bottom line is we were told without a doubt that the judge would abrogate our contract and/or throw it out all together by our experts and leadership.
When in reality that was wrong hence the pilots non-abrogation.
the pilots were successful and they were on top of the industry as far as contracts go. We are on the bottom of the industry and our arguments were much stronger for the judge. But we will never know because we were sold short once again by bad advice and no balls to fight.
We are the "weakest leading concessionary union" and it is embarassing!

we have lowered the bar for the industry on every contract

thanks for nothing

 

[Hopeful]

The bottom line is we were told without a doubt that the judge would abrogate our contract and/or throw it out all together by our experts and leadership.
When in reality that was wrong hence the pilots non-abrogation.
the pilots were successful and they were on top of the industry as far as contracts go. We are on the bottom of the industry and our arguments were much stronger for the judge. But we will never know because we were sold short once again by bad advice and no balls to fight.
We are the "weakest leading concessionary union" and it is embarassing!

we have lowered the bar for the industry on every contract

thanks for nothing

And another thing that we were told was the judge would not ok some provisions and deny others!!!!!
Did he not take two provisions and deny to abrogate pending modification of the two????

He would've had a field day with our contract!

 

[Chuck Schalk]

And another thing that we were told was the judge would not ok some provisions and deny others!!!!!
Did he not take two provisions and abrogate pending modification of the two????

He would've had a field day with our contract!

good point,

we were told by our experts and international officers that the judge will only and I say only will deny or reject the proposal in its entirety!
how could they all get it wrong? the fear factor is the only game they play and it works everytime.

these bad decisions will cost me and my family greatly but the experts and the international officers walk away unscathed with fat paychecks.

great representation we have

 

[Hopeful]

good point,

we were told by our experts and international officers that the judge will only and I say only will deny or reject the proposal in its entirety!
how could they all get it wrong? the fear factor is the only game they play and it works everytime.

these bad decisions will cost me and my family greatly but the experts and the international officers walk away unscathed with fat paychecks.

great representation we have

I would love to hear the TWU response to this...Little? Videtich? Gless? Cirri? Hewitt?

Anyone from the TWU heirarchy care to address this?

 

[eolesen]

we were told by our experts and international officers that the judge will only and I say only will deny or reject the proposal in its entirety!

I don't think any lawyer would have told you just "yes" or "no". There was going to be detailed reasoning as to "why" the ruling was made as it was.

That's what a Court does. Explain "why" even if it does turn into a roadmap to help reverse it's decision.



So far, you guys have for the most part managed to keep this from turning into into another "TWU Sucks" thread...

I'm shocked, but appreciative...

If you feel tempted, can you please keep the TWU discussion over in http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/54100-now-that-the-pilots-contract-was-not-abrogated/page__st__10 and leave this more for the APFA and APA to discuss the ramifications of the ruling?....

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think any lawyer would have told you just "yes" or "no". There was going to be detailed reasoning as to "why" the ruling was made as it was.

That's what a Court does. Explain "why" even if it does turn into a roadmap to help reverse it's decision.

The issue here is that on merits of TWO provisions and TWO provisions only, the judge denied the abrogation. That says alot. Yeah, all AA has to do is modify the two provisons and submit again. And yeah, abrogation will happen unless both APA and AA come to an agreement now that they BOTH know where the judge is coming from.

With us, I would bet the judge would have found a provision or two to find fault with with language alone. If he stated that the code sharing and furlough provisions overreached in the APA, he would have found more provisons in the M&R that, I believe, would have ended in the same outcome for us.

 

[MCI transplant]

If this doesn't insight the membership to throw out the TWU, nothing will!!!------ But than again, the baba's in Tulsa may not see it that way!!!!

 

[Overspeed]

The APFA explains the judge's decision perfectly in their hotline message. Judge Lane did something that has never been done in an 1113c motion hearing. He did not grant the motion to abrogate (been done before) however he gave AA legal counsel the specific roadmap or conditions to resubmit so that the contract could be abrogated. As the APFA states in their hotline, all the Company's arguments for their business plan were validated and we most certainly would have had our CBA abrogated if we had not accepted the TA.


APFA Special Hotline - August 15, 2012

Late this afternoon, the Bankruptcy Court issued a blistering indictment of the labor unions on American Airlines' property. The Court summarily rejected all but two arguments the pilots made in the Section 1113 hearing, including convergence - the argument that the company's ask would put the pilots below industry standard. Most of the pilots' arguments were identical to ours.

The Court's decision to reject the Company's motion, as it pertains to the APA, was based on two specific arguments that were unique to the Company's demand of the pilot work group. The Court decided that American did not need unlimited code sharing capabilities to reorganize its business. The second argument pertains to the Company's request for permission to make unlimited furloughs to the pilots. The APA contract, as it stands, limits the number of furloughs American can impose at 2,000. The Company's business plan stated that it needed 400 pilot furloughs in order to reorganize. The Court, therefore, decided that American did not need the ability to furlough an unlimited number of pilots. None of our arguments were equivalent to the two the Court sided with the pilots on.

APFA's legal counsel has stated that if the judge finds against AA's motion to abrogate (as he did in part with today's announcement), he will provide a clear roadmap to remedy any defects. Today's decision contains that roadmap. American says it intends to re-file its motion to abrogate the pilots current contract this Friday.

To reiterate, the remainder of the court's 100+ page decision validated each of American's arguments for its business plan and dismantled each of the unions' cases against it.

 

[Hopeful]

If this doesn't insight the membership to through out the TWU, nothing will!!!------ But than again, the baba's in Tulsa may not see it that way!!!!

Sadly, MCI, you are right. It will not insight the TULE YES VOTERS!

Who knows? Maybe the judge would've found provisions with us that might have saved even more TULE jobs.

We will never know!

 

[Overspeed]

good point,

we were told by our experts and international officers that the judge will only and I say only will deny or reject the proposal in its entirety!
how could they all get it wrong? the fear factor is the only game they play and it works everytime.

these bad decisions will cost me and my family greatly but the experts and the international officers walk away unscathed with fat paychecks.

great representation we have

Chuck is that all you have? Complaining about the Int'l paychecks. They did give good advice granted the legal staff did not foresee that Judge Lane would refuse to abrogate with some kind of guidance. In past airline cases a judge has never given a road map on how to screw a labor group over. Judge Lane validated the Company's arguments that they had the highest labor costs in the industry and we would have gotten hammered in court. The APFA is telling their members if they vote to reject they will most certainly have their agreement abrogated.

The inevitable has only been delayed and if you read Judge Lane's decision on the furloughs for the APA he stated that AA's demand for no caps on RIF's was excessive since the existing APA language allows for up to 2,000 pilot RIFs. The term sheet for the pilots was set at 400 so now AA can go as high 2,000. Is that a win?