SWAPA Prepares for possible strike
- Thread starter swamt
- Start date
topDawg
Veteran
- Nov 23, 2010
- 2,957
- 2,298
With this NMB and administration? yeah right. 9E was "to big" to strike, they let WN strike when WT says something negative about Delta.swamt said:
having said that, good luck to the pilots. Sucks how bad our government is failing labor.
swamt where are you guys at on a contract?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
don't lay this at my feet or .gov.
WN had a culture of handing out pay raises that went on for decades and now they have realized that they can't pay labor premiums when they fly to the same markets than other carriers do but get less revenue doing so.
It isn't hard to pay premiums when you monopolize and dominate markets but now that WN has to fly to markets where even AS is willing to go up against WN and not just WN force its way into legacy carrier markets, WN has no choice but to pay its people what other carriers pay plus what little extra productivity that WN can get out of its employees above those other carriers.
WN's problem is internal and it will have to be resolved internally.
Nonetheless, WN pilots can spend the summer breaking down the myth about what WN is in the eyes of its customers.
And if the other labor groups have some backbone, they will do the same instead of parading all over the internet telling other labor unions including those at crosstown AA what they need to do.
WN had a culture of handing out pay raises that went on for decades and now they have realized that they can't pay labor premiums when they fly to the same markets than other carriers do but get less revenue doing so.
It isn't hard to pay premiums when you monopolize and dominate markets but now that WN has to fly to markets where even AS is willing to go up against WN and not just WN force its way into legacy carrier markets, WN has no choice but to pay its people what other carriers pay plus what little extra productivity that WN can get out of its employees above those other carriers.
WN's problem is internal and it will have to be resolved internally.
Nonetheless, WN pilots can spend the summer breaking down the myth about what WN is in the eyes of its customers.
And if the other labor groups have some backbone, they will do the same instead of parading all over the internet telling other labor unions including those at crosstown AA what they need to do.
It would appear that in your haste to get the last word in on every thread, you typed without thinking.
WorldTraveler said:
So, which is it? Is WN catching up or are they tops in compensation?WorldTraveler said:
- Thread Starter
- #5
Our union passed a comprehensive offer to the company back in March. The company has now passed their comprehensive package to the union back in April. Pretty sure this will go on for the rest of the year (MO only) or we will be headed for mediation. With the way they are treating the pilots group and the no hurry for a contract with our group I would be putting my money on mediation if I were to bet on it. The next meeting at the table is set for 6-2-15, nothing set in May at all, and only one day set for June what that that tell everybody? It is sooooo obvious how bad the company is dragging this out. Our group is approaching the 3 year mark in Aug., Pilots are at or maybe over the 3.5 year mark, where our rampers are at or near the 4 year mark. With all this in mind they have reached TA's and extensions with other groups. I predict us going to mediation some time this year-just a guess on my part though...topDawg said:
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
of course WN is dragging the whole process out because no group is willing to settle for the couple percent pay raises at best that WN has given the groups that have settled.
As much as some people can't understand the concept, WN built its network around markets it could dominate, high growth, and abundant pay raises to keep its senior workers happy.
Now that WN is serving many of the same markets that the legacy carriers are serving and WN's average fares are LOWER THAN its legacy competitors in many of those markets, WN isn't able to keep throwing the money at its employees to keep them at the top of industry pay both in terms of absolute scales and pay growth rates.
WN's culture will increasingly be strained by the reality that other carriers can and will pay more while WN wll drag the process out as long as possible to allow the gap between its labor costs and those of its competitors to narrow
As much as some people can't understand the concept, WN built its network around markets it could dominate, high growth, and abundant pay raises to keep its senior workers happy.
Now that WN is serving many of the same markets that the legacy carriers are serving and WN's average fares are LOWER THAN its legacy competitors in many of those markets, WN isn't able to keep throwing the money at its employees to keep them at the top of industry pay both in terms of absolute scales and pay growth rates.
WN's culture will increasingly be strained by the reality that other carriers can and will pay more while WN wll drag the process out as long as possible to allow the gap between its labor costs and those of its competitors to narrow
topDawg
Veteran
- Nov 23, 2010
- 2,957
- 2,298
Best of luck!swamt said:
uh... i didn't?WorldTraveler said:
yeah the NMB sticking up the company 100% of the time and not allowing unions self up when they are years and years and years past the amenable date its the fault of the government.WorldTraveler said:
its all on the worthless bastards in the union right WT?
GMAFB, the RLA is a joke and the NMB is even more of a joke. Airlines should be just like every other union in the country. The contract expires on XX date and if no agreement is reached then you are on strike, period.
Kev3188
Veteran
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
good to see you around these parts, Kev. you've been a little too scarce. 
dawg,
I have nothing to do with whether WN has paid its people high, low, or in the middle and whether I say anything good, bad, or indifferent about DL or any other airline won't change the outcome.
I have never said the RLA is fair but it is what it is and anyone should have seen that consolidation of the industry took whatever strength labor MIGHT have left in the airline industry - and it wasn't much.
and it still doesn't change that WN labor unions won't get anywhere trying to plead to the government or anyone else because they are paid so high above their peers at other airlines.
WN was able to get by with that for years because it was able to dominate markets and had a much more junior workforce.
they can't do either of that any more so they cannot pay their people the premiums they once paid.
dawg,
I have nothing to do with whether WN has paid its people high, low, or in the middle and whether I say anything good, bad, or indifferent about DL or any other airline won't change the outcome.
I have never said the RLA is fair but it is what it is and anyone should have seen that consolidation of the industry took whatever strength labor MIGHT have left in the airline industry - and it wasn't much.
and it still doesn't change that WN labor unions won't get anywhere trying to plead to the government or anyone else because they are paid so high above their peers at other airlines.
WN was able to get by with that for years because it was able to dominate markets and had a much more junior workforce.
they can't do either of that any more so they cannot pay their people the premiums they once paid.
topDawg
Veteran
- Nov 23, 2010
- 2,957
- 2,298
and once again, i have said no such thing.....WorldTraveler said:
ha as i have told you before, pick up a book. You clearly know nothing about airline labor if you think that unions didn't have some power.WorldTraveler said:
okay first thingWorldTraveler said:
no one gives the smallest of shits what the public thinks. Labor will always be evil to the public no matter what happens.
second, legally the unions shouldn't have to "plead" anything. Fact is the government does whatever the hell they want even if it doesn't fallow the spirit of the RLA.
In the old days WN would be able to strike, now it isn't going to happen.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
or perhaps it says that even the "pro-labor" representatives in Washington including on the NMB recognize that labor's arguments don't work.
There are indeed cases in the airline industry where some airline's labor groups are paid below average.
But it isn't WN employees and given that many AA and all DL employees have BOTH received large increases in compensation, it is hard to argue that they are undercompensated or that their companies are not using their resources to improve labor's situation.
The airline industry is far more healthy and labor has benefitted from it under Obama than under Bush - and a lot of that comes because of the collapse of oil prices and consolidation in the industry some of which goes back 8 years, before Obama. Consolidation has also occurred under Obama. Consolidation has resulted in higher prices.
The problem with airline labor right now is that they expect that they should share EQUALLY in the economic successes of their companies - beyond even what has been offered despite the fact that nothing in labor law or the NMB requires that profits be proportionately shared with labor.
WN labor is very highly paid relative to their peers and they will NEVER win a debate in which they should be free to strike because they are frustrated with their pay levels and lack of the company's willingness to share profits.
Further, airline labor has benefitted far more in wage increases than has been the case in American industry as a whole - a fact that is not lost on the NMB.
as much as you would like to think I don't know what I am talking about, the mere fact that the argument you and other labor supporters are making isn't working out in real life while mine is would validate that I do in fact know what is going on.
and you can run around with the complex that the public sees labor as evil but that isn't even close to being true. The public is able to understand when people are underpaid and when labor succeeds at lifting their wages.
The problem for airline labor is that they have always been paid above average compared to comparable jobs in American industry overall and given that airline labor is now seeing larger increases in compensation than American workers overall is why the American public won't support actions by airline labor that try to frame themselves as needing pay raises when the plight of American workers overall has taken a large hit over the past decade.
There are indeed cases in the airline industry where some airline's labor groups are paid below average.
But it isn't WN employees and given that many AA and all DL employees have BOTH received large increases in compensation, it is hard to argue that they are undercompensated or that their companies are not using their resources to improve labor's situation.
The airline industry is far more healthy and labor has benefitted from it under Obama than under Bush - and a lot of that comes because of the collapse of oil prices and consolidation in the industry some of which goes back 8 years, before Obama. Consolidation has also occurred under Obama. Consolidation has resulted in higher prices.
The problem with airline labor right now is that they expect that they should share EQUALLY in the economic successes of their companies - beyond even what has been offered despite the fact that nothing in labor law or the NMB requires that profits be proportionately shared with labor.
WN labor is very highly paid relative to their peers and they will NEVER win a debate in which they should be free to strike because they are frustrated with their pay levels and lack of the company's willingness to share profits.
Further, airline labor has benefitted far more in wage increases than has been the case in American industry as a whole - a fact that is not lost on the NMB.
as much as you would like to think I don't know what I am talking about, the mere fact that the argument you and other labor supporters are making isn't working out in real life while mine is would validate that I do in fact know what is going on.
and you can run around with the complex that the public sees labor as evil but that isn't even close to being true. The public is able to understand when people are underpaid and when labor succeeds at lifting their wages.
The problem for airline labor is that they have always been paid above average compared to comparable jobs in American industry overall and given that airline labor is now seeing larger increases in compensation than American workers overall is why the American public won't support actions by airline labor that try to frame themselves as needing pay raises when the plight of American workers overall has taken a large hit over the past decade.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
Similar threads
