Didn't the dispatchers and the mechanics decertify from the IAM? I would watch the name calling you can call me a negative 15%er because that's what I am. However, you missed the mark on lazy.I am in favor of the IAM and what it represents I am not in favor of the representation we are receiving from our reps and would like to see them voted out after we decide who will represent us.
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Teamsters get new TA for Ramp
- Thread starter The Janitor
- Start date
Didn't the dispatchers and the mechanics decertify from the IAM? I would watch the name calling you can call me a negative 15%er because that's what I am. However, you missed the mark on lazy.I am in favor of the IAM and what it represents I am not in favor of the representation we are receiving from our reps and would like to see them voted out after we decide who will represent us.
ORDTA, I agree to a certain extent. The problem I'm having is that I don't think the international is listening to the concerns of the PCE group. That was the beginning of the problem the mechs had. The international refuses to address any complaints, or if they do they never reply with any feedback. I believe the IAM is struggling for money. The DL organizing drive dug deep into their pockets. Now they have to file all the lawsuits to save face. More money.The organizing for CAL/UAL will take more money. The dues increase that goes into effect in a couple of weeks (mine will be $60) will not even make a dent. Maybe this will help:Didn't the dispatchers and the mechanics decertify from the IAM? I would watch the name calling you can call me a negative 15%er because that's what I am. However, you missed the mark on lazy.I am in favor of the IAM and what it represents I am not in favor of the representation we are receiving from our reps and would like to see them voted out after we decide who will represent us.
" Since our pension plan is regulated by government oversight, it is a requirement of the Plan to provide secured benefits for the liability created by each person’s accrued pension benefits. In order to do that, the Trustees have determined to reduce the accrual rate of future benefits instead of cutting existing benefits."
http://www.iam141.org/us/index.html
The gov. has used our soc. security so maybe "borrowing" from this retirement plan will help.
The IBT probably has their issues also. ALL the same union corporations. If we had the vote today, I think I'd vote NO union!
Look. All I hear throughout this thread is beef between the IBT and the IAM. But no one has any solutions to our dilemma.
I think this merger is a good opportunity for a much better contract when both workforces combine.
I see this is only a temporary deal in itself. You can only comment on it saying that it is an inferior deal which it is. We don't have a contract yet.
Everything is now on the table when the workgroups combine. We don't have a existing contract like the UA people have which is amenable.
We have NOTHING yet. If we had to do this for three years, everybody would vote HELL NO! But you know that if we sign, the IAM will file for single carrier, and this will start all over again. We have received literature from the IAM saying such.
The company didn't even want to come to the table after we voted in the IBT. After many failed drives, they could not believe we voted in a union. The IBT put pressure on the company to at least negotiate. I (myself) thought that they were going to work with the BK UA deal and start upward, but I now see the logic in using the existing FTW book as a starter, and get back some of what we lost. Sure, we don't have 40 plus years of an IAM contract to work with - This is our FIRST. People on this board seem to forget that fact. This merger is an opportunity to make things better for both workgroups on the ramp. I don't like it (and btw: I voted NO.). But I think this TA will pass, because people want to move forward, and don't get stuck for another year with nothing, no grievance; no just cause process; and no profit sharing either. That's just my honest opinion.
We will see what happens next. Will the IAM step up and win the combined election? They need to take a page from the IBT. The IAM are not great organizers. After two failed drives with us, whereas the IBT won in their first attempt, they have to do better. I'm a strong Union person, and I want the best for myself and my co-workers. But I have to be a realist in this age of dwindling Union membership. You can argue between the IAM / IBT, but look at what happened at DL. They voted the down IAM / AFA top to bottom. With Dickie at the helm, I just hope they don't put downward pressure on our wages and benefits. We know we don't need that to happen.
I think this merger is a good opportunity for a much better contract when both workforces combine.
I see this is only a temporary deal in itself. You can only comment on it saying that it is an inferior deal which it is. We don't have a contract yet.
Everything is now on the table when the workgroups combine. We don't have a existing contract like the UA people have which is amenable.
We have NOTHING yet. If we had to do this for three years, everybody would vote HELL NO! But you know that if we sign, the IAM will file for single carrier, and this will start all over again. We have received literature from the IAM saying such.
The company didn't even want to come to the table after we voted in the IBT. After many failed drives, they could not believe we voted in a union. The IBT put pressure on the company to at least negotiate. I (myself) thought that they were going to work with the BK UA deal and start upward, but I now see the logic in using the existing FTW book as a starter, and get back some of what we lost. Sure, we don't have 40 plus years of an IAM contract to work with - This is our FIRST. People on this board seem to forget that fact. This merger is an opportunity to make things better for both workgroups on the ramp. I don't like it (and btw: I voted NO.). But I think this TA will pass, because people want to move forward, and don't get stuck for another year with nothing, no grievance; no just cause process; and no profit sharing either. That's just my honest opinion.
We will see what happens next. Will the IAM step up and win the combined election? They need to take a page from the IBT. The IAM are not great organizers. After two failed drives with us, whereas the IBT won in their first attempt, they have to do better. I'm a strong Union person, and I want the best for myself and my co-workers. But I have to be a realist in this age of dwindling Union membership. You can argue between the IAM / IBT, but look at what happened at DL. They voted the down IAM / AFA top to bottom. With Dickie at the helm, I just hope they don't put downward pressure on our wages and benefits. We know we don't need that to happen.
famousfreddie
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We all have a dog in this race. The industry is watching this very closely and may affect us over here as our negotiations begin next year. To say it was the first contract is a no excuse. Compare the New TA to the Ratified Mechanics Agreement, there are major differences. Both were negotiated by the IBT. One must ask why the drastic differences within the same airline? Scope costs money. I believe it was left out purposely by the 2%ers to pay for the sweetened mechanics deal.
Isn't that why the mechanics at ual left the iam because they thought they were special. How's elitism working for them?
Isn't that why the mechanics at ual left the iam because they thought they were special. How's elitism working for them?
Yeah, we all have a dog in this hunt. BUT, the more I think about this bickering, and propaganda, I am hoping my fellow co-workers vote yes on this deal. (which they probably will. I spoke to some IBT people yesterday, and got some questions answered. I saw the logic in what they did, and why the contract was put out there so quickly. The choices are not that great for us. Holding out for a better deal is not an option right now.
Think about it for a minute. The IAM-UAL talks are going nowhere (so far); They lost a ton of members from the NW/DL vote; and they are sending out the propaganda to us. We know that this is not the best deal, but if we dont vote yes on this deal, the IAM will file for single carrier, and the company wont negotiate with us at all. Once the IAM files single carrier, all negotiations are halted. That is what they are hoping for. We will get screwed, and they think that they will win. No protections for us, along with no raises and profit sharing. The UA people already have a contract that is amenable. We don't. We can lose a whole lot more in the process.
As I said again, the IAM should have done a better job campaigning, and winning us over earlier. Especially in 2008. But I digress. Why the animosity for the IBT? They campaigned hard and won after many years of failed drives between the IAM and TWU. We can, and will do better once the amalgamated contract is worked on. So I don't see what all of the fighting is about. The first mechanics contract wans't that great either, but it got better once the went to renegotiate. I would rather go into this merger with a contract, instead of nothing at all. WE will go into this merger as Teamsters till the election process takes place for one union among the entire ramp of the new UA. Either the IAM or the IBT will prevail. May the better union win!
Think about it for a minute. The IAM-UAL talks are going nowhere (so far); They lost a ton of members from the NW/DL vote; and they are sending out the propaganda to us. We know that this is not the best deal, but if we dont vote yes on this deal, the IAM will file for single carrier, and the company wont negotiate with us at all. Once the IAM files single carrier, all negotiations are halted. That is what they are hoping for. We will get screwed, and they think that they will win. No protections for us, along with no raises and profit sharing. The UA people already have a contract that is amenable. We don't. We can lose a whole lot more in the process.
As I said again, the IAM should have done a better job campaigning, and winning us over earlier. Especially in 2008. But I digress. Why the animosity for the IBT? They campaigned hard and won after many years of failed drives between the IAM and TWU. We can, and will do better once the amalgamated contract is worked on. So I don't see what all of the fighting is about. The first mechanics contract wans't that great either, but it got better once the went to renegotiate. I would rather go into this merger with a contract, instead of nothing at all. WE will go into this merger as Teamsters till the election process takes place for one union among the entire ramp of the new UA. Either the IAM or the IBT will prevail. May the better union win!
famousfreddie
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A contract with no scope and job protection is about as useful as a piece of used charmin. Captain Bourne should be ashamed of signing that peice of toilet paper. The only thing accomplished is the 2%ers just flushed everyone on the ramp. But don't worry he took care of the mechanics at the expense of the CAL fleet service. For 40 cents an hour I would think for the price of 10 cups of coffee a week he could have gotten something for it. Like Scope and no outsourcing for the life of the agreement.
Seriously what is UAL's motive to negotiate a transition agreement after a single carrier status is granted by the NMB, when they have CAL locked in until 13 with the right to outsource in 12? Let's get the crystal ball .............. none. It may be the law, but as long as their at the table staring, they are in compliance. Too many examples in the industry to list. Some are still waiting after 6 years. Do you think sTilton is going to allow Smiley to be a good guy? That ain't gonna happen.
If the TA is signed consider it severance as Captain B and the bolt butters laugh all the way to the bank as fleet cashes their severance checks (profit sharing).
But that is what happens when CW MacCall and washed out pilots negotiate railway labor contracts.
Go to www.voteiam.com to see factual information.
Seriously what is UAL's motive to negotiate a transition agreement after a single carrier status is granted by the NMB, when they have CAL locked in until 13 with the right to outsource in 12? Let's get the crystal ball .............. none. It may be the law, but as long as their at the table staring, they are in compliance. Too many examples in the industry to list. Some are still waiting after 6 years. Do you think sTilton is going to allow Smiley to be a good guy? That ain't gonna happen.
If the TA is signed consider it severance as Captain B and the bolt butters laugh all the way to the bank as fleet cashes their severance checks (profit sharing).
But that is what happens when CW MacCall and washed out pilots negotiate railway labor contracts.
Go to www.voteiam.com to see factual information.
whoop whoop
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It has nothing to do with being an elitist or not. The mechanics were a minority with no voice in the iam. It all about self representation. There are too many different issues in a catch all industrial union like the iam or ibt to represent any one group properly. So don't go insulting a group of people that you have no idea about, thank you. And by the way, it's working out very good. If the mechanics would of still been with the iam, they would of been making a lot less money then they make now, thank you AMFA for raising the bar.We all have a dog in this race. The industry is watching this very closely and may affect us over here as our negotiations begin next year. To say it was the first contract is a no excuse. Compare the New TA to the Ratified Mechanics Agreement, there are major differences. Both were negotiated by the IBT. One must ask why the drastic differences within the same airline? Scope costs money. I believe it was left out purposely by the 2%ers to pay for the sweetened mechanics deal.
Isn't that why the mechanics at ual left the iam because they thought they were special. How's elitism working for them?
whoop whoop
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Please explain why you keep on trying to throw mechanics in your fight? The mechanics do not like the ibt right now as much as UAL mechanics liked the iam back then. The ibt did not do us any favors on this contract or "take care of us" as you state. If they did, could you please explain to me how? I would like to know.A contract with no scope and job protection is about as useful as a piece of used charmin. Captain Bourne should be ashamed of signing that peice of toilet paper. The only thing accomplished is the 2%ers just flushed everyone on the ramp. But don't worry he took care of the mechanics at the expense of the CAL fleet service. For 40 cents an hour I would think for the price of 10 cups of coffee a week he could have gotten something for it. Like Scope and no outsourcing for the life of the agreement.
Seriously what is UAL's motive to negotiate a transition agreement after a single carrier status is granted by the NMB, when they have CAL locked in until 13 with the right to outsource in 12? Let's get the crystal ball .............. none. It may be the law, but as long as their at the table staring, they are in compliance. Too many examples in the industry to list. Some are still waiting after 6 years. Do you think sTilton is going to allow Smiley to be a good guy? That ain't gonna happen.
If the TA is signed consider it severance as Captain B and the bolt butters laugh all the way to the bank as fleet cashes their severance checks (profit sharing).
But that is what happens when CW MacCall and washed out pilots negotiate railway labor contracts.
Go to www.voteiam.com to see factual information.
It has nothing to do with being an elitist or not. The mechanics were a minority with no voice in the iam. It all about self representation. There are too many different issues in a catch all industrial union like the iam or ibt to represent any one group properly. So don't go insulting a group of people that you have no idea about, thank you. And by the way, it's working out very good. If the mechanics would of still been with the iam, they would of been making a lot less money then they make now, thank you AMFA for raising the bar.
You got that right Whoop...The nice salary I make right now is thanks to our 2001 AMFA contract at NW. We threw out the IAM because they continually turned a blind eye to the mechanics the only time they took us seriously was when AMFA became a real threat and that was when the airlines were doing great and the IAM brought back a totally crappy T/A. Even in the best of times we were screwed. Under the IAM the mechanics ALWAYS got the least amount of percentage raise compared with the other groups like the ramp but when paycuts came the mechanics took the largest paycut as a percentage compared with the other groups. I was so glad to see the IAM get their clock cleaned at DL. They are a scab union and proud of it. Although I lost almost 20 years at NW I walked in to FX at more money and make a very nice salary now after 5 years and I have no illusions as to why I make this salary.. Even though some people I work with here are clueless. I have a great deal now but sucks to start over in your 40's. I don't miss anything about NW except my 5 weeks vacation I used to have. Yep if it hadn't been for AMFA top mechanic pay would be lucky to break 30 bucks an hour. My whole time at NW I made only a couple of bucks over a ramp guy when the IAM was in there. When we got our first contract under AMFA my pay shot up almost 13 dollars an hour and my retirement went from 40 dollars per month per year of service (pathetic as that was) to 85 dollars per month per year of service. The guys here wear their IBT lanyards and I have tried to tell them just ask a UAL guy how he likes the Reamsters.
We all have a dog in this race. The industry is watching this very closely and may affect us over here as our negotiations begin next year. To say it was the first contract is a no excuse. Compare the New TA to the Ratified Mechanics Agreement, there are major differences. Both were negotiated by the IBT. One must ask why the drastic differences within the same airline? Scope costs money. I believe it was left out purposely by the 2%ers to pay for the sweetened mechanics deal.
Isn't that why the mechanics at ual left the iam because they thought they were special. How's elitism working for them?
Yeah funny when all the mechanics at not only NWA but UAL and AA (if they ever get wise and kick the TWU to the curb). Funny in that when we try to break away that we are somehow labeled as "elitists" All we at NWA wanted was for the mechanics to have a voice of their own but the IAM totally blew us off until AMFA became a real threat since we had enough of the IAM. Then all of a sudden they come out and offered the mechanics a separate district. Too little too damn late. Let me ask you a question. Why is it that when mechanics want a union to represent the needs of mechanics they are castigated but the pilots and F/A's have their own union that looks out for their interests as well as dispatchers at some airlines but for some reason we cannot why is that? Thats all I ever wanted was a craft union set up to represent things that are important to us the mechanics as a whole. But even then because of the class and craft the NMB ruled we had to take the a/c cleaners as well which I had issues with. No offense to the cleaners but just because some of you clean a/c parts should not give you a right to be in our class and craft. Even when we were AMFA for the short time we had them at NW virtually all the grievances were from the cleaner group. So our dues money were spent fighting their battles. So I guess mechanics will never have a voice of their own and I actually blame mechanics for this. There were way too many outside A@P's willing to scab. They were too damn stupid to see that our fight was for the betterment of ALL mechanics not just us. So when NW busted AMFA the pay dropped almost 10 dollars an hour overnight save a few good companies like my employer. So I guess I will ride the coattails of union mechanics efforts and not have to pay dues just like DL and FX mechanics have been doing all these years and reap top dollar with no risk.
whoop whoop and lineguy43, Great posts! I remember back when Dennis Sanderson ran the UAL amfa website. I totally agree that each craft and class should have their own representation. Not as an "eliitist" but because of the different cultures of each craft. If I remember correctly, wasn't the mechs biggest beef against the IAM was that they tried to ram the pension into every TA? They wouldn't take no for an answer.
T5towbar, the IAM propaganda that they're mailing you guys about "bashing" your TA is showing a little hypocriisy. Every piece of advice the IBT is giving you about the importance of having a contract going into a merger is EXACTLY the same advice the IAM gave the PCE group 10 years ago. The only difference is you are facing a merger and we were facing the end of ESOP. I would think a merger is more important than losing employee ownership. Also, the importance of having a contract quickly AND short in duration is also EXACTLY what the IAM advised us. Also, our first contract was our "series 15" company manual. Nothing better (like OT bypass increased vac/holidays/job protection) Those improvements came a couple of years later when the first negotiated contract became amendable. I don't know why anyone would want to try to pit one employee group against another.
T5towbar, the IAM propaganda that they're mailing you guys about "bashing" your TA is showing a little hypocriisy. Every piece of advice the IBT is giving you about the importance of having a contract going into a merger is EXACTLY the same advice the IAM gave the PCE group 10 years ago. The only difference is you are facing a merger and we were facing the end of ESOP. I would think a merger is more important than losing employee ownership. Also, the importance of having a contract quickly AND short in duration is also EXACTLY what the IAM advised us. Also, our first contract was our "series 15" company manual. Nothing better (like OT bypass increased vac/holidays/job protection) Those improvements came a couple of years later when the first negotiated contract became amendable. I don't know why anyone would want to try to pit one employee group against another.
Thank you for some clarity in this conversation..............
famousfreddie
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Please explain why you keep on trying to throw mechanics in your fight? The mechanics do not like the ibt right now as much as UAL mechanics liked the iam back then. The ibt did not do us any favors on this contract or "take care of us" as you state. If they did, could you please explain to me how? I would like to know.
Look at the contracts online.................. TA for fleet.........vs........... Mechanics Contract
Everyone can understand a higher hourly rate and license pay for mechanics but the glaring differences is in the balance of the contract. It explains who takes care of who. Captain Bourne (aka CW MacCall) took care of mechanics at the expense of fleet. CW used the muscle of the recently organized fleet at CAL to drive home a lucrative contract for his mechanics. Perhaps you can explain it to the fleet why mechanics get more vacation, more scope, OT and signing bonus (just to name a few).
CW exploited the hard work of one group to better another group. He must have taken a few lessons from Bernie Madoff. Until CW and everyone understands each group needs each other to advance collectively, people like sParker, sTilton and Smiley will prosper and rake in hundred million of dollars on a annual basis at the expense of all. Everyone can make a case their work group is the most important to the airline, but the fact is without each group working together there would not be an airline and therefore no jobs for any of us. CAL fleet deseved a fair shake and didn't get one from CW. The airline has 9,000,000,000 dollars in unrestricted cash and could only afford 40cents an hour to CAL fleet with no scope, explain that to me.
whoop whoop
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I've seen both contracts since I am a CAL mechanic. I do agree you guys at CAL ramp got a disastrous T/A, but it wasn't because the ibt gave it all to us mechanics. We got sold a bill of goods also. We get more vacation probably because that is the industry standard maintenance wise, we have absolutely NO scope, OT is the average standard OT anybody would get and the signing bonus was the carrot on the stick to get the majority to vote in this crap the ibt came back to us with. Don't blame the mechanics for a worse than garbage job the ibt has done for you, blame the ibt.Look at the contracts online.................. TA for fleet.........vs........... Mechanics Contract
Everyone can understand a higher hourly rate and license pay for mechanics but the glaring differences is in the balance of the contract. It explains who takes care of who. Captain Bourne (aka CW MacCall) took care of mechanics at the expense of fleet. CW used the muscle of the recently organized fleet at CAL to drive home a lucrative contract for his mechanics. Perhaps you can explain it to the fleet why mechanics get more vacation, more scope, OT and signing bonus (just to name a few).
CW exploited the hard work of one group to better another group. He must have taken a few lessons from Bernie Madoff. Until CW and everyone understands each group needs each other to advance collectively, people like sParker, sTilton and Smiley will prosper and rake in hundred million of dollars on a annual basis at the expense of all. Everyone can make a case their work group is the most important to the airline, but the fact is without each group working together there would not be an airline and therefore no jobs for any of us. CAL fleet deseved a fair shake and didn't get one from CW. The airline has 9,000,000,000 dollars in unrestricted cash and could only afford 40cents an hour to CAL fleet with no scope, explain that to me.
I am no iam fan, they are scabs in my eyes, but so is the ibt. If I was a ramper, the iam would be my choice. They have done more for the ramp than the ibt will ever do.
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