Temporary Injunction against USAPA filed today

[700UW]

Another day the judge has to search high and low for a reason that the operation slowed on account of the pilots. Unfortunately for Doug, the judge has read the Charlotte Observer all these years, and knows the airline slows all the time because of the management blunders. They need to sue themselves. It has gotten worse since the West was won. Team Tempe has taken underperformance to a new low.

Wow, it is simply amazing how the east pilots are so desperate that your grasping at straws.

A newspaper does not factor into a Legal Court Decision, unless it has been presented as evidence.

That's called Hearsay and it is not admissible in court, guess Seeham didnt tell you that, did he?

 

[Black Swan]

Wow, it is simply amazing how the east pilots are so desperate that your grasping at straws.

A newspaper does not factor into a Legal Court Decision, unless it has been presented as evidence.

That's called Hearsay and it is not admissible in court, guess Seeham didnt tell you that, did he?

Here is one for you, legal expert. I will take Bill Wilder over you, any day, every day. By the way, the first part is what got the NMB parachuters suited up so they could be ready to drop into the wacky judge Wakes courtroom!


[uThe judge ordered that USAPA must negotiate to implement the Nicolau Award unchanged into a combined collective bargaining agreement. It also ordered that USAPA could not negotiate separate agreements for the pilot groups. A later hearing on monetary damages,[ :blink: :blink: :blink: if any, will be held.

This decision is wrong, contradicts established law and is dangerous to the state of the law under the Railway Labor Act.

While the judge correctly concluded that USAPA is the successor to ALPA’s collective bargaining agreement, that in no way restricts USAPA from negotiating any and all terms of that agreement, including the Nicolau Award. The judge nowhere considers precedent, such as Association of Flight Attendants v. United Airlines and Association of Flight Attendants v. US Airways, which hold that a predecessor union’s collective bargaining agreement provides only the beginning point for a successor union’s negotiations and the successor is free to negotiate changes to the agreement. To do otherwise would perpetuate the rejected union as representative.

The court also wrongly held that USAPA is bound by the Nicolau Award as the product of ALPA Merger Policy. ALPA Merger Policy is only an internal union procedure. It is not part of the collective bargaining agreement with US Airways (even if it was, USAPA could still negotiate [/size]changes to it.) USAPA cannot be bound to ALPA Merger Policy since it is not ALPA, and only ALPA’s subordinate bodies, the Master Executive Councils (which, admittedly, are not real labor organizations) are bound to follow the Merger Policy. The Merger Policy has no standing under the Railway Labor Act and since USAPA’s successor obligations only exist under the RLA, they cannot include ALPA Merger Policy.[/size]



Bill Wilder, right on this one. Too bad Leonidas didn't heed the monetary damages part! :unsure: :unsure:

 

[700UW]

And Wilder left out major key facts in the case, the T/A is part of your CBA, so go hire him, he is wrong, an armchair lawyer, just trying to steal business.

Like I said, G R A S P I N G at straws!

Changing unions does not alleviate a union of arbitrations and a CBA, if thats the case then I think US should just impose its own terms, since your not bound by ALPA's previous CBAs, Grievance, etc...

How many CBAs have you negotiated? How many grievances did you present? How many arbitrations have you presented? How much training have you had in the RLA, Collective Bargaining or The Grievance Procedure?

 

[Black Swan]

"The court was also wrong about whether the case was ripe to be heard since the only action taken by USAPA was to make a proposal in bargaining. No actual agreement was reached with US Airways to change the Nicolau Award. In fact, the court admitted that US Airways has not responded to the USAPA proposal. So the proposal cannot have caused any injury to the plaintiffs."


OK 700 UW, who had this one nailed? You or Wilder? This was posted by Bill right after Wake ruled his infamous blunder. The ripeness cost 2 million for the boys. One hour with Wilder would have been $600 bucks versus the 2 million they paid the good doctor. Who was the better lawyer? And it was right in front of them for free! :blink: :blink: All you have are claims of working grievances. Hats off to you, but you do not really have the understanding your IAM lawyers working for you do. You lean on them, like any labor group. They held your hand, and rightly so. But you have not one claim that came to fruition on this issue, not a one. Wilder has been correct on each and every one.

 

[Black Swan]

And Wilder left out major key facts in the case, the T/A is part of your CBA, so go hire him, he is wrong, an armchair lawyer, just trying to steal business.

Like I said, G R A S P I N G at straws!

Changing unions does not alleviate a union of arbitrations and a CBA, if thats the case then I think US should just impose its own terms, since your not bound by ALPA's previous CBAs, Grievance, etc...

How many CBAs have you negotiated? How many grievances did you present? How many arbitrations have you presented? How much training have you had in the RLA, Collective Bargaining or The Grievance Procedure?

I stand by Wilder over a disgruntled former employee any day. Here is the part about the union change. You tell me one thing. If Parker has the Nicolau and accepted it, why does he keep telling the west pilots "THIS IS FOR YOU GUYS TO DECIDE...." Why is it 4+ yrs and no implementing? Give me a reason. I will tell you, read below. He has been told EXACTLY what Wilder stated by legal.




While the judge correctly concluded that USAPA is the successor to ALPA’s collective bargaining agreement, that in no way restricts USAPA from negotiating any and all terms of that agreement, including the Nicolau Award. The judge nowhere considers precedent, such as Association of Flight Attendants v. United Airlines and Association of Flight Attendants v. US Airways, which hold that a predecessor union’s collective bargaining agreement provides only the beginning point for a successor union’s negotiations and the successor is free to negotiate changes to the agreement. To do otherwise would perpetuate the rejected union as representative.

The court also wrongly held that USAPA is bound by the Nicolau Award as the product of ALPA Merger Policy. ALPA Merger Policy is only an internal union procedure. It is not part of the collective bargaining agreement with US Airways (even if it was, USAPA could still negotiate changes to it.) USAPA cannot be bound to ALPA Merger Policy since it is not ALPA, and only ALPA’s subordinate bodies, the Master Executive Councils (which, admittedly, are not real labor organizations) are bound to follow the Merger Policy. The Merger Policy has no standing under the Railway Labor Act and since USAPA’s successor obligations only exist under the RLA, they cannot include ALPA Merger Policy.

 

[700UW]

Not disgruntled at all, made my best decision to leave that mess.

And Wilder has nothing to do with your case, so keep grasping, maybe you can look up a case in China, or Russia or seek another lawyer's opinion to suit your needs.

Or better yet, at the next DFR trial, when Bradford is forced to testify, you can find out how many lawyers he shopped till he found one who would do his bidding, because they all knew an end around on a binding arbitration case was a dead loser.

And the case wasmt overturned on the merits and facts, it just wasnt ripe yet, maybe one day you will all see this.

Enjoy your 1978 wages in the year 2011, with no pension and being the bottom feeder of the whole industry.

Even the west CBA who you claim are the bottom have a better CBA than the East.

Once again, dont let the facts get in your way!

Last time I checked Wilder isnt a judge, nor part of your case its his opinion, and you know what they say about those dont you?

Seeham lost his AMFA cash cow and USAPA is keeping him rolling in the money. Go look up his history, anti-labor, anti-union lawyer, lost a major Status Quo case that screwed every newly organized workers under the RLA, see AMFA vs ACA, also represented the El Al and Alitalia against unions.

Educate yourself, if you just want to throw money away, go make it rain and make some strippers happy.

 

[Black Swan]

Not disgruntled at all, made my best decision to leave that mess.

And Wilder has nothing to do with your case, so keep grasping, maybe you can look up a case in China, or Russia or seek another lawyer's opinion to suit your needs.

Or better yet, at the next DFR trial, when Bradford is forced to testify, you can find out how many lawyers he shopped till he found one who would do his bidding, because they all knew an end around on a binding arbitration case was a dead loser.

And the case wasmt overturned on the merits and facts, it just wasnt ripe yet, maybe one day you will all see this.

Enjoy your 1978 wages in the year 2011, with no pension and being the bottom feeder of the whole industry.

Even the west CBA who you claim are the bottom have a better CBA than the East.

Once again, dont let the facts get in your way!

Last time I checked Wilder isnt a judge, nor part of your case its his opinion, and you know what they say about those dont you?

Seeham lost his AMFA cash cow and USAPA is keeping him rolling in the money. Go look up his history, anti-labor, anti-union lawyer, lost a major Status Quo case that screwed every newly organized workers under the RLA, see AMFA vs ACA, also represented the El Al and Alitalia against unions.

Educate yourself, if you just want to throw money away, go make it rain and make some strippers happy.

Oh, I did educate myself. And all the slash and burn, enjoy your wages blah blah blah don't cover for the fact WILDER, not me, had this one nailed. I did not say there is no damage, and that is an issue. I said, along with WILDER, that Leonidas and Jacobs were way off on the damage pursuit they followed. Premature adjudication. I don't care if Wilder is not a judge, does that matter? Wake was a judge, and a bunch of clerks spanked that judge. Judges go to jail all the time and get overruled. I stick with Wilder over all the distractions of all the rest of the bunch. As did the 9th, and that is good enough for me. The entire mess got slammed into a wall in San Francisco, and it will once more if it gets out of hand. Here is my last statement to you. Bets in. I am all in with Wilder on the fact USAPA is not bound by Nic. ALL IN. Make your statement, because this is the next big one. I guarantee the Nic. is not going to be the deal unless the USAIRWAYS PILOTS say it is with a vote.

 

[700UW]

Was the case overturned on the merits and facts?

Answer that.

Last time I checked clerks dont decide a case nor an appeal.

 

[700UW]

Changing unions does not absolve the new union from the CBA, grievance awards and arbitration decisions, there is plenty of case history on this. You dont know what your talking about.

UA, went from IAM, to AMFA to IBT, NW went from IAM to AMFA, NW went from IBT, to PFAA to AFA, NOTHING HAS CHANGED to any CBA, Grievance awards and arbitration awards.

But hey, dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[Black Swan]

Changing unions does not absolve the new union from the CBA, grievance awards and arbitration decisions, there is plenty of case history on this. You dont know what your talking about.

UA, went from IAM, to AMFA to IBT, NW went from IAM to AMFA, NW went from IBT, to PFAA to AFA, NOTHING HAS CHANGED to any CBA, Grievance awards and arbitration awards.

But hey, dont let the facts get in your way.

There are two, 2 in the body of what I quoted you. More BLAH back. I ask you this- Wilder quoted the AFA and UAL and the AAA flight attendants. What is that? There are two in front of you that make his case. We do not, do not have a joint contract. How is the Nicolau the agreed methodology then? You are referring to changes AFTER a CBA was ratified, not prior. Big difference.

 

[700UW]

Read and learn, this is what is exactly gonna happen.

Company will win the DJ and you will have to use the nic.

USAPA will never negotiate a new CBA with the nic.

30 day cooling off period will be imposed sooner or later.

Company will impose a new CBA at the end.

You can walk or work under it.

And the East history is to cave and work, not many six figure flying jobs out there.

I cant wait to the day that I can tell you I told you so.

USAPA is no match for Glass. I have done battle with him, mano y mano, have you?

 

[nic4us]

Read and learn, this is what is exactly gonna happen.

Company will win the DJ and you will have to use the nic.

USAPA will never negotiate a new CBA with the nic.

30 day cooling off period will be imposed sooner or later.

Company will impose a new CBA at the end.

You can walk or work under it.

And the East history is to cave and work, not many six figure flying jobs out there.

I cant wait to the day that I can tell you I told you so.

USAPA is no match for Glass. I have done battle with him, mano y mano, have you?

Close, with minor exceptions.

There is no "win" in the DJ for the company. The court will either say, yep you are liable with usapa for a non-Nic, or no you are not. The fact that a non-Nic contract is a direct breach of contract, violating both CBAs and the TA, leads one to beilieve that the company would be liable. However, we have all seen just how screwed up the courts can be, so, Silver might think of a reason to allow the company and usapa to violate the West pilot class, "for the greater good of the remaining employees, and the traveling public".

Also, the company would likely say the terms of any imposed contract is to remain status quo regarding pay and vacancies etc..but goodbye to fleet min, COC, LTD etc.. In other words, there will be no new contract, just a company free for all, running roughshod over the two existing contracts.

 

[azdryheat]

Hate to tell you, but both PI and US capt on DC-9 and 737 's were making 120k-140 k back in the 1978 days.That carried along right up to the 2000's. That was a lot of money made and saved all those years, while AWA made squat. A USAir BAC 1-11 F/O made 70 k in the second year. 9 F/O s made more. You don't know what you are talking about.

And in 2000 a UA 400 Captain was making 300K. Unfortunately this is 2011. Were you a DC-9/737 Captain in 1978? The facts are that today USAir East (and UA) make a lot less, even worse if adjusted for inflation.

 

[nic4us]

While the judge correctly concluded that USAPA is the successor to ALPA’s collective bargaining agreement, that in no way restricts USAPA from negotiating any and all terms of that agreement, including the Nicolau Award.



The court also wrongly held that USAPA is bound by the Nicolau Award as the product of ALPA Merger Policy. ALPA Merger Policy is only an internal union procedure. It is not part of the collective bargaining agreement with US Airways (even if it was, USAPA could still negotiate changes to it.) USAPA cannot be bound to ALPA Merger Policy since it is not ALPA, and only ALPA’s subordinate bodies, the Master Executive Councils (which, admittedly, are not real labor organizations) are bound to follow the Merger Policy. The Merger Policy has no standing under the Railway Labor Act and since USAPA’s successor obligations only exist under the RLA, they cannot include ALPA Merger Policy.

Again Swan, two absolutely false statements by Wilder, and you are hanging everything on those false statements.

1. "that in no way restricts usapa from negotiating ANY AND ALL TERMS OF THAT AGREEMENT, INCLUDING THE NIC." usapa is completely restricted by their Duty of Fair Representation owed to the West pilots. Any change to the already completed system seniority list, and usapa has to prove how it does not violate that DFR, why they wanted the change, who benefits from the change, etc..

2. "ALPA Merger Policy is only an internal union procedure. IT IS NOT PART OF THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT WITH USAIRWAYS". Again, completely false statement. My CBA says ALPA merger policy, your CBA says ALPA merger policy, the TA says ALPA merger policy. usapa is bound by our respective CBAs they inherited, and are therefore bound to the completed seniority list, that was arrived at using those CBAs prior to their election.

Finally, Wilder does another contradiction of his own statement by saying "usapa's successor obligations only exist under the RLA". Well Mr. Wilder, you say usapa has successor obligations, yet you say usapa does not have to live by those obligations.


BTW Swan, 85 years of RLA case history and 4 federal judges say Wilder is wrong, but that does not seem to stop him from trying to get usapa's millions that Seeham has been milking.

 

[Move2CLT]

Again Swan, two absolutely false statements by Wilder, and you are hanging everything on those false statements.

1. "that in no way restricts usapa from negotiating ANY AND ALL TERMS OF THAT AGREEMENT, INCLUDING THE NIC." usapa is completely restricted by their Duty of Fair Representation owed to the West pilots. Any change to the already completed system seniority list, and usapa has to prove how it does not violate that DFR, why they wanted the change, who benefits from the change, etc..

2. "ALPA Merger Policy is only an internal union procedure. IT IS NOT PART OF THE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT WITH USAIRWAYS". Again, completely false statement. My CBA says ALPA merger policy, your CBA says ALPA merger policy, the TA says ALPA merger policy. usapa is bound by our respective CBAs they inherited, and are therefore bound to the completed seniority list, that was arrived at using those CBAs prior to their election.

Finally, Wilder does another contradiction of his own statement by saying "usapa's successor obligations only exist under the RLA". Well Mr. Wilder, you say usapa has successor obligations, yet you say usapa does not have to live by those obligations.


BTW Swan, 85 years of RLA case history and 4 federal judges say Wilder is wrong, but that does not seem to stop him from trying to get usapa's millions that Seeham has been milking.

Spot on and great posts!!!! Nice work people. And just to add, the east will NEVER get release on S22 alone, especially with a DJ in place and the threat of legal action by the west pilots. The NMB will not put a company into legal jeopardy - period.

And keep quoting Wilder easties - it makes me laugh.