The road to recovery will begin Thursday.

[AA80Driver]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 8:36:12 PM AAObserver wrote:



As long as the unions choose to re-vote the concessions while AA is spinning toward financial disaster, then YES the unions are at fault. They are being a huge part of the problem instead of part of the solution.


----------------​

The reality is they''re not voting on the TA, they''re voting on Carty. The corporate culture at AA is sick and it needs be fixed. SWA hires from the same general candidate pool as AA and has a highly unionized workforce, so why is it that AA can''t get the same return on their "human capital" that SWA does.

 

[JAMAKE1]

I can speak for the AFA (Flight Attendants) TA.


AA F/A''s are giving up 15.6%

UA F/A''s are giving up 9% (granted AA book rates are slightly higher)

AA F/A''s lost all paid holidays

UA F/A''s kept 5 out of 10 paid holidays

AA F/A''s lost purser pay on narrow-bodies

UA F/A''s kept theirs (2.25/hr w/9% reduction...you do the math)

AA F/A''s lost 33% of their vacation

Only UA F/A''s w/25+ years lost time (from 51 days to 44 days)

AA F/A''s lost crew meals on domestic and int''l flights

UA F/A''s keep their crew meals

AA F/A''s per diem reduced to $1.50/hr domestic

UA F/A''s reduced to $1.75/hr domestic

AA F/A''s lose medical/dental on vol furlough

UA F/A''s keep medical/dental on vol furlough

AA F/A''s lose severence/furlough pay

UA F/A''s keep fulough pay

Most importantly, UA F/A''s have most of their work rules preserved:

5 hrs. min pay for one day

10 hrs. min pay for two day

15 hrs. min pay for three day

20 hrs. min pay for four day

We also kept dry cleaning reimbursement, taxi cab reimbursement for check ins before 07:00 or after 21:00, etc.

I am not trying to rub it in, my point is that the F/A TA at AA is far more punitive than the UA F/A TA.

You can tell that their MEC signed under a great deal of pressure and as a result, their TA is far more painful than what US and UA
F/A''s ended up with.

 

[gogogadget]

AAobserver,

Get over yourself, it is easy to poke and prod from the outside while others can only dodge your insults.

There are problems on both sides, yes things in union contracts can be considered fat, and obviously things in management contracts can be considered the same. There is a checks and balance thing going on here, very similar to prosecutors and defense lawyers. If you only have one then you have a dictatorship.

Don Carty screwed the pooch on this one and has finally brought this to a head. You can only push people so far before they push back. Will replacing Don Carty help? It will go a long way in the eyes of those that are the backbone of this company! Will it be more of the same? Very very likely!

What has Southwest got that we dont? Plain and simple, a good old fashioned culture based on good old fashioned work ethic! They hire people that are willing to go the extra mile and do it consistantly. The airline equivilant of the Navy Seals! They built an airline that has been cost concious since the beginning and focusus every minute on that objective while providing only what people want. American and others subscribe to the "Florida Center for Cosmetic Surgery" approach. If you dont like it, buy it and deal with the consequences in your latter years!

The problem the rest of the industry is Capitalism at work. People want to fly 6-7miles above the earth in multi-multi-million dollar aircraft at the 80% the speed of sound and want to pay taxi-cab prices. People at the top want to stay at the top at the expense of those that helped get them there. People at the bottom are willing to compromise themselves and their beliefs to be at the top. The laws are designed to foster this mentality and weather or not you are republican or democrat or green or purple, at the end of the day you are still.......American!

gadget

"The worst place to put a Christian,
is on his Knees!"

 

[AAObserver]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 10:06:38 PM AA80Driver wrote:

----------------
On 4/23/2003 8:36:12 PM AAObserver wrote:



As long as the unions choose to re-vote the concessions while AA is spinning toward financial disaster, then YES the unions are at fault. They are being a huge part of the problem instead of part of the solution.


----------------​

The reality is they''re not voting on the TA, they''re voting on Carty. The corporate culture at AA is sick and it needs be fixed. SWA hires from the same general candidate pool as AA and has a highly unionized workforce, so why is it that AA can''t get the same return on their "human capital" that SWA does.

----------------​

If the conditions are really this bad at AA, you have to wonder why AA has any employees at all. Certainly if everyone is this miserable they would find another job at a company that doesn''t have such a sick corporate culture.

 

[mga707]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 921 PM AAStew wrote:


Please don''t hide that fact, I think it is great. So am I. Who says you can''t be republican and pro-union, kind of?


----------------​

Sure...just like being a Jewish Nazi, or a Satanic Christian...

 

[RV4]

Never mind on the topic. "Road to Recovery"

There are far more reaching political issues and airline contract comparisons still to be worked on before we will ever recover.

My apologies, I jumped ahead and was only hoping.

 

[AA80Driver]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 1048 PM AAObserver wrote:

----------------
On 4/23/2003 10:06:38 PM AA80Driver wrote:

----------------
On 4/23/2003 8:36:12 PM AAObserver wrote:




If the conditions are really this bad at AA, you have to wonder why AA has any employees at all. Certainly if everyone is this miserable they would find another job at a company that doesn't have such a sick corporate culture.


----------------​

Unfortunately, the seniority based collective bargaining system makes the individual employee somewhat of a hostage to their current employer. If you leave, you go to the bottom of the seniority list at another carrier. That means starting over again at 25K a year and all the associated disincentives of being the junior person on the property. That said, each individual has their own breaking point where it may be worth it to abandon their skill and start over outside the industry or start at the bottom again within it.

This allows the company to treat people the way they do, because the employee won't be predisposed to leave due to the almost punitive consequences. There is also a cost to this type of culture and I think we're seeing it now.

Personally, I'm exploring several avenues to get the heck out of this company. Maybe the judge will make the decision an easy one.

 

[Connected1]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 10:06:38 PM AA80Driver wrote:

The corporate culture at AA is sick and it needs be fixed. SWA hires from the same general candidate pool as AA and has a highly unionized workforce, so why is it that AA can''t get the same return on their "human capital" that SWA does.
----------------​

I''ll grant you that our culture is in a state of disrepair around here, but it is the symptom - not the cause - of the failure of this company. AA is a shrinking, unprofitable airline. SWA is a growing, profitable airline. It is much easier to keep your employees happy when you don''t have to knock on their door for concessions.

So, really, SWA''s success is rooted in the fact that it never outgrew its skin on the government dole, and has maintained an artificially constrained, equity-funded growth pattern since deregulation.

 

[AA80Driver]

----------------
On 4/24/2003 8:41:35 AM Connected1 wrote:

I''ll grant you that our culture is in a state of disrepair around here, but it is the symptom - not the cause - of the failure of this company. AA is a shrinking, unprofitable airline. SWA is a growing, profitable airline. It is much easier to keep your employees happy when you don''t have to knock on their door for concessions.

So, really, SWA''s success is rooted in the fact that it never outgrew its skin on the government dole, and has maintained an artificially constrained, equity-funded growth pattern since deregulation.

----------------​

The corporate culture is not a symtom of the current climate but is certainly exacerbated by it. It has been dysfunctional during good times as well as bad...even Carty has admitted that.

You overly simplify the unparralleled record of success put forth by SWA in a dog eat dog industry. Corporate culture has been a lynch pin of their company from the begining. Is it the only reason they''re successful? No. But, they are able to get more out of their people than most companies in this business and more importantly their customers are highly satisfied even though the product is spartan at best.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

We''ll never be Southwest, and it has nothing to do with pay, or labor/management relations, or our product. What everyone is ignoring about the AA/WN culture comparison is age.

At WN, you still have one of the original founders as Chairman, and hundreds who have worked there from their first five years as a company. They are living examples of the startup days.

To find the "startup days" at AA, you can go back as far as 1936 if you want to, but I''d take it to post-war 1945. There are only six employees left with seniority dates prior to 1950 (three CC''s in maintenance, and three flight instructors). There are only about 70 employees left who started with AA before we flew jets (pre-1959). About 80% of our current employees started after deregulation in 1979.

That doesn''t mean there''s no hope. But it does mean that have a lot of history to ignore.

 

[stewbear]

----------------
On 4/23/2003 11:15:00 PM JAMAKE1 wrote:


I can speak for the AFA (Flight Attendants) TA.


AA F/A''s are giving up 15.6%

UA F/A''s are giving up 9% (granted AA book rates are slightly higher)

AA F/A''s lost all paid holidays

UA F/A''s kept 5 out of 10 paid holidays

AA F/A''s lost purser pay on narrow-bodies

UA F/A''s kept theirs (2.25/hr w/9% reduction...you do the math)

AA F/A''s lost 33% of their vacation

Only UA F/A''s w/25+ years lost time (from 51 days to 44 days)

AA F/A''s lost crew meals on domestic and int''l flights

UA F/A''s keep their crew meals

AA F/A''s per diem reduced to $1.50/hr domestic

UA F/A''s reduced to $1.75/hr domestic

AA F/A''s lose medical/dental on vol furlough

UA F/A''s keep medical/dental on vol furlough

AA F/A''s lose severence/furlough pay

UA F/A''s keep fulough pay

Most importantly, UA F/A''s have most of their work rules preserved:

5 hrs. min pay for one day

10 hrs. min pay for two day

15 hrs. min pay for three day

20 hrs. min pay for four day

We also kept dry cleaning reimbursement, taxi cab reimbursement for check ins before 07:00 or after 21:00, etc.

I am not trying to rub it in, my point is that the F/A TA at AA is far more punitive than the UA F/A TA.

You can tell that their MEC signed under a great deal of pressure and as a result, their TA is far more painful than what US and UA
F/A''s ended up with.

----------------​

LOST, LOST, LOST, LOST LOST LOST..HEEE HEEE, Well, Who will be doing the Snob aka Snub on the crew van now???? HAHAHA...we (and i don''t mean UAL) will be throwing tip money at you AAers

 

[MADAMT]

To AAobserver

If you had benn employeed at AA you would have the right to pontificate on what is wrong with the Unions and with AA. As an observer you need to come to certain realizations.

We as employees have endured 20+ years of concessions in one shape or form. There are mulitudes of them that if you would like a litany of them write to me and I will give you a detailed list.

AA management has made poor business decisions the past 5 years, 9/11 only speeded the process up. They have failed to come forth and accept any responsibility for those errors.

You are correct in stating that the Unions are part of the problem. They have joined hands with Management, a Unions main objective is to improve the overall conditions of employeement. It is not to provide or insure the creation of more jobs. That responsibility belongs to Governments and Corporations, a Unions job is to assure better conditions.

The Unions only objective latley has been to increase or maintain its membership, Unions have become a business onto themselves. The dues incerease its bottom line and the more members there are gives them political clout both locally and in Washington. The average working person has become an obscure necissity his relevance is discounted and is only referd to when neceassary or only paid the slightest bit of lip service.

Whats the solution, we all need to read up on labor history and learn why Unions formed and the sacrafice that many have endured. These things they fought for, sometimes bloddy battles for, should not be cast aside or disregarded.

Those who fail to learn the lesson from history are doomed to repeat them.