Airlinelifer
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Lowering the bar?.. Jeez guess your famous ex-leader Bob Crandall didnt lower the bar with the infamous "B" scale....
The unions are coming, the unions are coming!
- Thread starter bagboy
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Lowering the bar?.. Jeez guess your famous ex-leader Bob Crandall didnt lower the bar with the infamous "B" scale....
North by Northwest
Veteran
Luke, here's the post from the FAKE...(who is really Delta management)
----------------------------------------------------
AA1016
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post Jan 22 2008, 08:13 AM
Post #31
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Posts: 5
Joined: 13-March 03
Member No.: 1,986
AA1016--
Actually I am neither. My partner happens to be a Delta Flight Attendant and I an attorney. As you state "Fair and equitable" can be subjective. In the case of the merger with Western Airlines that was a fair and equitable integration. As stated, by BABABOOY the PanAm's European Network was acquired by Delta, and what happened to former PanAM Flight Attendants that were not hired by Delta...they lost their jobs. Neither Western or PanAm Flight Attendants were given date of hire, nor was either group stapled to the bottom. As you may recall the PanAm Flight Attendants did file suit against Delta regarding this and the Flight Attendants lost. Even more recently in the case of American Airlines acquiring TWA and the Flight Attendants being stapled to the bottom of the seniority list, the courts ruled in favor of the AA Flight Attendants. Delta will not staple anyone to the bottom of the list, it would be integrated similar to their past practices, and this is the best case for a Delta Flight Attendant. In my professional opinion Delta's Flight Attendants will get a better deal regarding seniority from Delta more so than the AFA. Keep some of your seniority and vote in a union after a merger. These days we have to look out for ourelves, no one is truly going to take care of us. Let Delta manage the seniority integration to your benefit and then vote in the union later. "
Same old dribble of divide and conquer. Well, charlie, AA1060, or nycaa or what ever your name is. NW FAs support Delta FAs 100%. You will have a few kool-aid drinkers, but the vast majority are fed up with the SLAVE MASTERS of Delta controlling their lives with a whim. NON UNION Delta is a thing of the past.
2BlacknBlue
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hmmm...first, "I'm not a AA F/A I am actually a DL manager...."
Second, "They are getting things back a lot quicker than we are at AA."
Synopsis:
A DL manager concerned with DL flight attendants getting things back a lot quicker than WE are at AA.
This is a TROLL!
I just received this: Discuss if you like.
Any NW f/A's out there know if this is true?
Monthly Flight Pay – Delta is higher
Schedule flexibility (bidding, swapping, dropping, picking up) – ability to fly unlimited high time or drop to zero and a lower minimum requirement every month (average of 45 hours per month or 540 per year) at Delta to qualify for benefits
Profit-sharing – Delta is higher
Pension Plan – both DL & NWA plans are frozen with similar benefit amounts
401(k) – Delta has higher company contribution + match (7%) than NWA (3-6% based on age + seniority)
Per Diem – Delta is higher
Training Pay – Delta is higher
Vacation Days – Delta has more
Leader Pay – Delta is higher
Dues – Delta = $0, NWA = $516 per year
BOTTOM LINE: Of these top ten most important items for me, Northwest F/As (with the “power†of a legal, “binding†contract through 2011) are inferior in nine of the ten items and equal on #4! Please tell me Mr. Campbell why I need to join AFA? Hint: So Delta F/As can have the “privilege of equality†on item # 10?
Any NW f/A's out there know if this is true?
Monthly Flight Pay – Delta is higher
Schedule flexibility (bidding, swapping, dropping, picking up) – ability to fly unlimited high time or drop to zero and a lower minimum requirement every month (average of 45 hours per month or 540 per year) at Delta to qualify for benefits
Profit-sharing – Delta is higher
Pension Plan – both DL & NWA plans are frozen with similar benefit amounts
401(k) – Delta has higher company contribution + match (7%) than NWA (3-6% based on age + seniority)
Per Diem – Delta is higher
Training Pay – Delta is higher
Vacation Days – Delta has more
Leader Pay – Delta is higher
Dues – Delta = $0, NWA = $516 per year
BOTTOM LINE: Of these top ten most important items for me, Northwest F/As (with the “power†of a legal, “binding†contract through 2011) are inferior in nine of the ten items and equal on #4! Please tell me Mr. Campbell why I need to join AFA? Hint: So Delta F/As can have the “privilege of equality†on item # 10?
bagboy
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Well now that the rough necks at NW are no longer knocking on your door, I suppose you can all get back to life as before. I hope this opened up some of your eyes to see who these people are and who they really represent. Good luck to all. Pride runs deep, just remember to put the cup down. Booy, if you don't get it by now its game over.
i got the cut and past wrong. The following entire quote was sent to me, Not mine LOL
"MY TOP TEN REASONS WHY I HAVE A BETTER DEAL AS A DELTA FLIGHT ATTENDANT THAN FLIGHT ATTENDANTS AT NORTHWEST:
Monthly Flight Pay – Delta is higher
Schedule flexibility (bidding, swapping, dropping, picking up) – ability to fly unlimited high time or drop to zero and a lower minimum requirement every month (average of 45 hours per month or 540 per year) at Delta to qualify for benefits
Profit-sharing – Delta is higher
Pension Plan – both DL & NWA plans are frozen with similar benefit amounts
401(k) – Delta has higher company contribution + match (7%) than NWA (3-6% based on age + seniority)
Per Diem – Delta is higher
Training Pay – Delta is higher
Vacation Days – Delta has more
Leader Pay – Delta is higher
Dues – Delta = $0, NWA = $516 per year
BOTTOM LINE: Of these top ten most important items for me, Northwest F/As (with the “power†of a legal, “binding†contract through 2011) are inferior in nine of the ten items and equal on #4! Please tell me Mr. Campbell why I need to join AFA? Hint: So Delta F/As can have the “privilege of equality†on item # 10? "
"MY TOP TEN REASONS WHY I HAVE A BETTER DEAL AS A DELTA FLIGHT ATTENDANT THAN FLIGHT ATTENDANTS AT NORTHWEST:
Monthly Flight Pay – Delta is higher
Schedule flexibility (bidding, swapping, dropping, picking up) – ability to fly unlimited high time or drop to zero and a lower minimum requirement every month (average of 45 hours per month or 540 per year) at Delta to qualify for benefits
Profit-sharing – Delta is higher
Pension Plan – both DL & NWA plans are frozen with similar benefit amounts
401(k) – Delta has higher company contribution + match (7%) than NWA (3-6% based on age + seniority)
Per Diem – Delta is higher
Training Pay – Delta is higher
Vacation Days – Delta has more
Leader Pay – Delta is higher
Dues – Delta = $0, NWA = $516 per year
BOTTOM LINE: Of these top ten most important items for me, Northwest F/As (with the “power†of a legal, “binding†contract through 2011) are inferior in nine of the ten items and equal on #4! Please tell me Mr. Campbell why I need to join AFA? Hint: So Delta F/As can have the “privilege of equality†on item # 10? "
LukeAisleWalker
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I agree. Booy, you re-posted a lot of "Delta's is higher" (with no specifics). And I have a good idea that you got this from the DL anti-union FA site. I won't dignify it by posting its web address.
Even if DL is higher by a a dollar or so...which is the extent of it., there are many ways where this is a wash. If it weren't so, then an independent study wouldn't have found a couple of months ago that DL's FA unit costs are the lowest of any major air carrier. (Check it out on deltaafa.org)
If you by now are not interested in:
--Accountability of managers and schedulers
--Having a voice/vote in your work life's future
--Putting forth effort to negotiate away the Social Security Offset (which, by the way, NW does not have.)
--Having a REAL sick bank that you can roll over, year after year (and I don't mean a few PPT days.)
......then, it's really too late for you. I'm not really sure just what it is you're looking for to help you make a decision. I, personally, think, from your past postings, that your mind is made up to not vote ("no") and that's fine. But I would respect you more if you would just say that instead of pretending that you're not sure and posting drivel from that anti-union site founded (and possibly still run) by the former Texas-based FA. You know, the one where pro-union FAs like D. Campbell actually give his name (and a pic to boot!) while the anti-union ones hide behind all kinds of screennames. They have even had offers to 'come out of the closet' and debate the issues w/ DL AFA activists but they refuse. That's fine but don't expect me to respect anything they have to say.
North by Northwest
Veteran
You'll see how long that lasts with Richard Anderson running the show. The items you've mentioned are pennies on the dollar (for giving up control of your future, to being dictated to). I could run a whole laundry lists of items of the NWA contract that is far superior to what you have at Delta. That would be a waste of time. I would suggest you ask yourself, If being NON Union is so great...why are the Pilots Unionized, and who is treated FAR better?
NXNW..I tried to post a full OAL comparison chart above, but had trouble with it. Bababoy is correct in most of what he posted above according the chart that I have, but my chart as is leaves alot of things out! If you don't mind, I am honestly curious to what things at NW are superior to DL (for my own education).
I do know that the NW bankrupcy payout was definately superior to ours!!
Thanks!
With the influx of email that i get from both the AFA, and Delta, there is alot of information to digest and
figure out what is best for me. Yes ME. If you would like to know my true intent, it is just that. Fact finding.
That is why I posted the previous. With the intent of a F/A from NW who could counter it, if it wern't true.
I have learned alot from these boards, I have learned alot from reading outside articles on Delta. I have learned so far that there is three sides. Delta, AFA and somewhere in the middle is the truth. I have also learned that this is a Different Delta that hired me 19 years ago. I learned that the AFA is not the calvery and is going to make everything ok. So for ME, I have to figure out what is the lesser of two evils.
So the easy thing would be for those who read this is to imeadiatly disregard me as a kool aid drinker or a plant. But the fact is there are many more out there like me, who are overwhelmed with the information from both sides. Instead of ingnoring, I choose to fully explore. I also like to add that I hope that the tone on this board truly doesn't reflect the AFA the "them vs. us" mentality.. There is alot of HATRED of Managemnt on here. If we are going to be represented by AFA we must remember that we will still have to work with Managment.
The aggressive attitude is really a turn off.
North by Northwest
Veteran
BBB..allow me to share with you some first hand insight into your new management.
He is a lawyer, there is nothing touchy feely about him. He speaks with a warm and disarming manner Very likable. When it comes to slicing you straight down the middle as it relates profit...let's just say he was chosen to run NW by Dasburg (the epitome of greedy self serving scum) over Steenland! They will use you like you never thought possible. They will show you a quality of life that will make the Chinese factory workers life look good.
This management views labor as a necessary evil. Delta employees will be shell shocked when Anderson turns, in a pursuit for bonues and profit. They will simply tell you (non union) take it or leave. At 19 years, they would LOVE to see you leave.
Delta employees, DO NOT FOOL yourselves about RAnderson. This man was trained by FRANK LORENZO at Continental in the 1980's.
(will post some contract info later)
He is a lawyer, there is nothing touchy feely about him. He speaks with a warm and disarming manner Very likable. When it comes to slicing you straight down the middle as it relates profit...let's just say he was chosen to run NW by Dasburg (the epitome of greedy self serving scum) over Steenland! They will use you like you never thought possible. They will show you a quality of life that will make the Chinese factory workers life look good.
This management views labor as a necessary evil. Delta employees will be shell shocked when Anderson turns, in a pursuit for bonues and profit. They will simply tell you (non union) take it or leave. At 19 years, they would LOVE to see you leave.
Delta employees, DO NOT FOOL yourselves about RAnderson. This man was trained by FRANK LORENZO at Continental in the 1980's.
(will post some contract info later)
You are better off with no union. They (AFA) Pat Friend and others are crooks.. They are only interested in collecting dues and
sitting in the office with coffee and donuts for the staff and senior flight attendants who don't fly but gossip and get fat... It doesn't matter
if you have a union or not. You will still be treated like crap and the pilots will always get special treatment. no offense to you pilots
just that this is the way it is. So don't buy into this union crap. I am AFA with United Airlines, the only thing this unions may get you
is far less work rules,long days of turns and domestic crap, no trades they claim its the company but please AFA....... and making millions off the flight attendants. The company does what they want such as BK... Save your money !! VOTE NO
Trust me ask anyone who hates AFA at United.... They are all crooks!!! The only ones who tell you that they love AFA is because they suck up to them.
Be smart and VOTE NO.....
North by Northwest
Veteran
I've YET to see anyone on here say they love AFA..or any Union for that matter. I see plenty on here who are mature and intelligent enough to know what corporate America will do to you with out a Union..i.e NORTHWEST Airlines during Bankruptcy. I have seen people on here point to the maturity of having a voice in their future. You may have a beef with AFA, but I can tell you...you don't have a clue as to what you'd be dealing with in bankruptcy/or out WITHOUT AFA.
You speak as if you expect your job to be perfect because you have a Union. A Union is only as good as the lazy apathetic members it has to guide it, demand from it. Unless you have stepped up to the plate to make a stand in your Union, you are hardly in a position to tell others about the NON Union benefits. Many, prefer to let others do the work for them while they sit and enjoy the fruits.
Delta FA's wouldn't have half of what they now have had it not been for the Unions at other carriers. It is because of THEIR sacrifices that Delta was forced to pay competing wages.
And if any Delta FA thinks that will continue under the new boss...well, there are Free houses with pools being given away in Hollywood.
North by Northwest
Veteran
"The Delta flight attendants pension plan is frozen too, and no longer accruing benefits. Even if there’s a merger we won’t suddenly be put under their plan, nor will benefits under our NWA Plan be subjected to limits and restrictions the Delta flight attendants have in their plan, like their Social Security offset. Our Plan is separate from theirs and will remain so, by law. While those frozen benefits won’t change, if we merge with the Delta flight attendants, we may share future retirement benefits. If we’re union members when that happens we’ll have the opportunity to negot iate those benefits. If we’re non-union, Delta executives will decide what those benefits should be.
Our existing 401(k) funds would not be jeopardized. The two potential scenarios are that either our NWA 401(k) would continue as a separate plan or, if we were to go over to Delta’s 401(k), for example, our funds could be rolled over into their plan. The terms of the two plans are different: our NWA plan has a higher employer direct contribution (between 3% and 6% based on the sum of the Flight Attendant’s age and years of vesting service). At Delta, the company direct contribution is smaller at 2% for all plan participants, with a matching contribution of up to 5%. Of course, to take full advantage of the match, Delta flight attendants must contribute a larger percentage of their income.
Unlike the NWA DB plan, under the Delta Cash Balance Plan, there is an offset for Social Security benefits. This means that the benefit calculated and paid under the terms of the DB Plan are reduced according to a formula based on Social Security benefits received by a Plan participant. That offset persists even though the Plan is frozen, and it is now subject to litigation.
Does Delta FAs have it better overall than NW FA under AFA?
In fact, many of DL’s workrules are much worse than ours. Things we take for granted are unheard of at Delta, like having access to the seniority list to guard against seniority violations (which is IMPORTANT because your seniority dictates TRIPS=PAY). And, things that we have fought for at Northwest are not part of the “policy manual†at Delta—sick time cannot be carried over into the following year. There are many other examples where their current workrules at Delta are worse than ours, but remember: the biggest difference is that there is no legally enforceable contract at Delta and management can and does change the pay, benefits and working conditions whenever it wishes. If Delta management decides to cut their pay, change their seniority or outsource international flying, they just do it because there’s no legally binding contract to prevent it.
Delta’s Flight Attendant unit costs are the lowest of the major legacy carriers, substantially lower than ours, overall. Ask yourself, if their costs are lower, what’s the first thing the controlling management group will try to do after a merger? If there’s no contract and no Union, management will cut our costs even more to bring us in line with Delta. Don’t fall for the management propaganda: yes, Delta’s hourly rates are higher than ours, but the full package doesn’t add up. Management would love to have a free hand to outsource our jobs and impose conditions even worse than those forced upon us by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court. If you’re not crazy about this concessionary contract, negotiated under the constraints of bankruptcy, imagine your life without any contract."
Monthly Flight Pay – Delta is higher
Schedule flexibility (bidding, swapping, dropping, picking up) – ability to fly unlimited high time or drop to zero and a lower minimum requirement every month (average of 45 hours per month or 540 per year) at Delta to qualify for benefits...ONLY PARTIALLY TRUE
Profit-sharing – Delta is higher ...NOT TRUE/NWA IS HIGHER BASED ON STANDARD AMOUNTS, NOT HOW MUCH YOU MUST CONTRIB.
Pension Plan – both DL & NWA plans are frozen with similar benefit amounts (NWA'S IS SUPERIOR/ NO SOCIAL SECURITY OFF-SET
401(k) – Delta has higher company contribution + match (7%) than NWA (3-6% based on age + seniority) NOT TRUE SEE ABOVE
Per Diem – Delta is higher (post, and i will post NW)
Training Pay – Delta is higher SAME as above
Vacation Days – Delta has more SAME as above
Leader Pay – Delta is higher SAME
Dues – Delta = $0, NWA = $516 per year (and how much are Delta FA cheated out of in the thousands each year)
SICK TIME- NWA IS SUPERIOR, Delta can not carry over yoy.
Our existing 401(k) funds would not be jeopardized. The two potential scenarios are that either our NWA 401(k) would continue as a separate plan or, if we were to go over to Delta’s 401(k), for example, our funds could be rolled over into their plan. The terms of the two plans are different: our NWA plan has a higher employer direct contribution (between 3% and 6% based on the sum of the Flight Attendant’s age and years of vesting service). At Delta, the company direct contribution is smaller at 2% for all plan participants, with a matching contribution of up to 5%. Of course, to take full advantage of the match, Delta flight attendants must contribute a larger percentage of their income.
Unlike the NWA DB plan, under the Delta Cash Balance Plan, there is an offset for Social Security benefits. This means that the benefit calculated and paid under the terms of the DB Plan are reduced according to a formula based on Social Security benefits received by a Plan participant. That offset persists even though the Plan is frozen, and it is now subject to litigation.
Does Delta FAs have it better overall than NW FA under AFA?
In fact, many of DL’s workrules are much worse than ours. Things we take for granted are unheard of at Delta, like having access to the seniority list to guard against seniority violations (which is IMPORTANT because your seniority dictates TRIPS=PAY). And, things that we have fought for at Northwest are not part of the “policy manual†at Delta—sick time cannot be carried over into the following year. There are many other examples where their current workrules at Delta are worse than ours, but remember: the biggest difference is that there is no legally enforceable contract at Delta and management can and does change the pay, benefits and working conditions whenever it wishes. If Delta management decides to cut their pay, change their seniority or outsource international flying, they just do it because there’s no legally binding contract to prevent it.
Delta’s Flight Attendant unit costs are the lowest of the major legacy carriers, substantially lower than ours, overall. Ask yourself, if their costs are lower, what’s the first thing the controlling management group will try to do after a merger? If there’s no contract and no Union, management will cut our costs even more to bring us in line with Delta. Don’t fall for the management propaganda: yes, Delta’s hourly rates are higher than ours, but the full package doesn’t add up. Management would love to have a free hand to outsource our jobs and impose conditions even worse than those forced upon us by the U.S. Bankruptcy Court. If you’re not crazy about this concessionary contract, negotiated under the constraints of bankruptcy, imagine your life without any contract."
Monthly Flight Pay – Delta is higher
Schedule flexibility (bidding, swapping, dropping, picking up) – ability to fly unlimited high time or drop to zero and a lower minimum requirement every month (average of 45 hours per month or 540 per year) at Delta to qualify for benefits...ONLY PARTIALLY TRUE
Profit-sharing – Delta is higher ...NOT TRUE/NWA IS HIGHER BASED ON STANDARD AMOUNTS, NOT HOW MUCH YOU MUST CONTRIB.
Pension Plan – both DL & NWA plans are frozen with similar benefit amounts (NWA'S IS SUPERIOR/ NO SOCIAL SECURITY OFF-SET
401(k) – Delta has higher company contribution + match (7%) than NWA (3-6% based on age + seniority) NOT TRUE SEE ABOVE
Per Diem – Delta is higher (post, and i will post NW)
Training Pay – Delta is higher SAME as above
Vacation Days – Delta has more SAME as above
Leader Pay – Delta is higher SAME
Dues – Delta = $0, NWA = $516 per year (and how much are Delta FA cheated out of in the thousands each year)
SICK TIME- NWA IS SUPERIOR, Delta can not carry over yoy.
