The UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT

[777 fixer]

I don't know. What I do know is after reading the report I'm more convinced that this law is so flawed it could collapse the entire economy & the Healthcare system along with it.

You don't know, great answer. Guess one way to figure it out is to ask yourself that question.

 

[SparrowHawk]

You don't know, great answer. Guess one way to figure it out is to ask yourself that question.

I'm not concerned about MSA's per se or who has how much in theirs.

What I'm concerned about is that we have a free market health care system. One where one can go to a hospital web site and see published prices. When you have that level of competition consumers WIN. How we get there is immaterial to me. I've done a ton of reading from Alex Jones to Moveon.org and I am convinced that the Affordable Health Care Act (Obama Care) will neither be affordable or beneficial to the American citizen. Frankly IMO this dog won't hunt period. It's train wreck waiting to happen. Way way way to much smoke, mirrors and creative accounting to try and justify this abortion of a law.

When you have to use $141 Billion in projected IRS penalties to help cost justify the plan you know the rest is pure bull feces.

 

[signals]

Something people are overlooking is that insurance gets cheaper with more members. If you make an insurance accessible to the masses, it may actually be more affordable for them.

This proves that it is a political move to increase insurance rates for the rest of us. If you think about it, the poor are insured-medicade, and the elderly are insured-Medicare. The rest of us have to pay for the uninsured crack babies, smokers, obese, diabetics, and all those who are young and unhealthy.i

 

[Ms Tree]

Wheat happens when you find out you cannot afford the published price of a heart transplant, Chemo, hernia or any of the other services? My brother in law had to have heart valve replacement surgery. The tab was over $1 million. The only way I could afford that right now is if the hospital were to discount that 98%. I am pretty sure that will not happen. The only way cost of health care can be affordable is if the cost are spread out. The idea of free enterprise leveling the playing field is insane. Your poor example of the airline industry is bad yet good example. Sure cost are down but look at the quality and look at the corners being cut. Maint is being shipped out to low cost providers.... etc. With medical vacations, hospitals are already starting to lose ground. As far as I am aware there is nothing preventing hospitals from competing now so why are the prices so high? Not sure what the answer is but setting the hospitals free to do what they want is not it in my opinion.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Wheat happens when you find out you cannot afford the published price of a heart transplant, Chemo, hernia or any of the other services? My brother in law had to have heart valve replacement surgery. The tab was over $1 million. The only way I could afford that right now is if the hospital were to discount that 98%. I am pretty sure that will not happen. The only way cost of health care can be affordable is if the cost are spread out. The idea of free enterprise leveling the playing field is insane. Your poor example of the airline industry is bad yet good example. Sure cost are down but look at the quality and look at the corners being cut. Maint is being shipped out to low cost providers.... etc. With medical vacations, hospitals are already starting to lose ground. As far as I am aware there is nothing preventing hospitals from competing now so why are the prices so high? Not sure what the answer is but setting the hospitals free to do what they want is not it in my opinion.

If they published their true cost plus a modest profit the people would riot when they saw the rigged deck that is Health Care.

In the end the free market ALWAYS prevails. Ask the USSR. It took 70 years to fail but it did fail just a Social Security is failing now along with Medicare. So our answer is to expand the failure by creating an entirely new entitlement under Bush known as Medicare part D and now we're adding in another unfunded entitlement while wringing our hands over an unsustainable debt, high gas, groceries and unemployment.

As to the airlines, On time is UP, Lost bags are down, consumer complaint lower and good prices for consumers. Sounds like the free market is working just fine to me.

 

[signals]

Wheat happens when you find out you cannot afford the published price of a heart transplant, Chemo, hernia or any of the other services? My brother in law had to have heart valve replacement surgery. The tab was over $1 million. The only way I could afford that right now is if the hospital were to discount that 98%. I am pretty sure that will not happen. The only way cost of health care can be affordable is if the cost are spread out. The idea of free enterprise leveling the playing field is insane. Your poor example of the airline industry is bad yet good example. Sure cost are down but look at the quality and look at the corners being cut. Maint is being shipped out to low cost providers.... etc. With medical vacations, hospitals are already starting to lose ground. As far as I am aware there is nothing preventing hospitals from competing now so why are the prices so high? Not sure what the answer is but setting the hospitals free to do what they want is not it in my opinion.

Who caused their problems? Not me! End of story!

 

[Ms Tree]

The level of ignorance in that statement is truly staggering. At one point or another most of us will need a hospital for emergency care. I hope you remember your comment when it is you or a loved one who needs care.

 

[southwind]

Wheat happens when you find out you cannot afford the published price of a heart transplant, Chemo, hernia or any of the other services? My brother in law had to have heart valve replacement surgery. The tab was over $1 million. The only way I could afford that right now is if the hospital were to discount that 98%. I am pretty sure that will not happen. The only way cost of health care can be affordable is if the cost are spread out. The idea of free enterprise leveling the playing field is insane. Your poor example of the airline industry is bad yet good example. Sure cost are down but look at the quality and look at the corners being cut. Maint is being shipped out to low cost providers.... etc. With medical vacations, hospitals are already starting to lose ground. As far as I am aware there is nothing preventing hospitals from competing now so why are the prices so high? Not sure what the answer is but setting the hospitals free to do what they want is not it in my opinion.

Here in lies the problem...............Where in the Constitution does it say Healthcare is a right ?

 

[eolesen]

Here in lies the problem...............Where in the Constitution does it say Healthcare is a right ?

Call me a heartless bastard, but I must have missed the ammendment which says protecting life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness includes eliminating death by natural causes.

 

[Ms Tree]

I do not see how it violets anything by requiring people to pay for services that they will require at one point in their lives. I do not like paying for people who have to use the ER as a doctors visit for medical issues that could have been resolved less extensively had they got to a GP for preventative care. There is nothing in the LOTUS regarding speed limits, FAA and a host of other items but we all use the.services directly or indirectly so we all pay for them.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I do not see how it violets anything by requiring people to pay for services that they will require at one point in their lives. I do not like paying for people who have to use the ER as a doctors visit for medical issues that could have been resolved less extensively had they got to a GP for preventative care. There is nothing in the LOTUS regarding speed limits, FAA and a host of other items but we all use the.services directly or indirectly so we all pay for them.

BTW, "Violets" are flowers.

It all goes back to rights of the individual to be responsible for their lives. Liberty gives us the right to make stupid choices. However the choice is ours to make. Not that of a Federal or even state bureaucracy. Regardless of the philosophical differences this isn't going to work upheld or not. I'm going to post a portion of a rather lengthy piece by Mike Shedlock. Mike Shedlock is a registered investment advisor representative for Sitka Pacific Capital Management.

Why ObamaCare will FAIL!

Mathematically Speaking, Obamacare Cannot Survive

My friend "BC" writes:

Obama gets attacked by opponents, but the "reform" was written by hospital companies, doctors, and insurers and is an effective tax on the labor of young people and a massive transfer to the aforementioned groups who already receive a grossly disproportionate share of GDP already.

Were the real culprits to be singled out for scrutiny of their motives, it would be doctors, hospitals, and insurers.

Healthcare Key Points

"Health care" (HC) spending is now 17% of GDP and an equivalent of 50% of private wages and of total government spending, growing at twice the rate of GDP since '00.
50% of HC spending is on the sickest 5%.
20% is spend on end-of-life services for elders.
Private HC and total government spending is an equivalent of 100% of public and private wages.
HC and war spending make up and equivalent of 25% of GDP.
Out-of-pocket HC costs are now the primary cause of personal bankruptcy.
HC in the US is unaffordable for most people were they to have to pay for it themselves.
"The market" is "rationing" care for at least 50 million uninsured people and would for most elders were they to have to bear more of the true costs of their late-life care.


Unless one can make a case for the economy becoming 100% government and HC spending over the next 30-40 years, there is a 0% probability that growth of HC spending can continue, let alone at twice the rate of GDP. A decline of 30% is a mathematical certainty over the next 10+ years and 50% per capita over the same period.

That the growth of government and HC spending has contributed 100% of growth of GDP since '00-'01, no growth and eventual contraction of HC spending will mean effectively no nominal GDP growth hereafter except for whatever net incremental borrowing and spending will occur at the federal level.

Were US government spending to grow at the trend rate, nominal GDP will avg. 1%. Were US government spending to slow to the GDP trend, nominal GDP will be no more than 0.8%.

The implied ~1% nominal GDP growth implies the 10-yr. Treasury yield in the low 1% range, little or no price inflation (eventually falling services prices), decelerating core inflation and periodic core deflation, and no growth of bank lending, employment, investment, spending, and reported earnings for most of the decade.

We will look back on the period '09-'12 as a final central bank-induced asset reflationary cycle that eventually gave way to the forces of demographics, thermodynamics, debt deflation, and valuations.
Whether Obamacare passes Supreme Court muster or not, mathematically speaking, healthcare cannot survive in its present form, nor can it survive in Obamacare form for reasons my friend BC explains.

Mike "Mish" Shedlock
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com

 

[777 fixer]

As to the airlines, On time is UP, Lost bags are down, consumer complaint lower and good prices for consumers. Sounds like the free market is working just fine to me.

I said this before and I'll say it again. Using the airline industry as an example is just plain dumb. One, they are two very different industries. Two, the airline industry is a mess from the customer and employee standpoint.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I said this before and I'll say it again. Using the airline industry as an example is just plain dumb. One, they are two very different industries. Two, the airline industry is a mess from the customer and employee standpoint.

The equation for customers and employees is resolving itself. I have been a US1 since 2001 and have had regular dealings with higher level airline folks so I'm pretty familiar with the challenges of the airline biz.

Every industry is different, so finding a direct analogy especially with Health Care is nearly impossible. However market forces are just that and they behave the same regardless of industry.

The nasty truth is that when markets have their greatest difficulty is when Government regulation or infusion of money becomes to intrusive. This is/was true in aviation, education and health care. The minute the Government throws a pile of money at a market, prices rise. This is historical fact. Ultimately that market collapses because the "bubble" burst! (Think housing bubble).

Part of the reason for the upward spiral is the government spends 50% of the HC dollars right now today pre-Obama care and as we've seen above it's unsustainable. Equally unsustainable is for us to do nothing. I'm not sure what the total answer is and when that occurs I revert to a free market approach which mean getting government out of a market and letting Mother Nature take her course

 

[southwind]

I do not see how it violets anything by requiring people to pay for services that they will require at one point in their lives. I do not like paying for people who have to use the ER as a doctors visit for medical issues that could have been resolved less extensively had they got to a GP for preventative care. There is nothing in the LOTUS regarding speed limits, FAA and a host of other items but we all use the.services directly or indirectly so we all pay for them.

Who says they have to go to the ER.....................Walgreens anybody..............but then they would have to actually get money out of "Their" pocket !

 

[Ms Tree]

I was not aware that Wallgreens had an ER with surgeons and nurses on duty. My bad.