Things that may happen in a merger.

[Mrs. McFly]

Then I pose this question to you. If Doug agreed to pay AA pilots delta +3% as we are hearing before any type of integration has occured. And that any joint contract must be ratified to take effect. Why on earth would the 10000 or so AA pilots ever vote to ratify anything that included the US east or west group in thier list? They already have the best pay that Doug is going to offer, so all they would be doing is voting to put people above them on their list. With the press release that the APA put out and the one Doug put out It does not appear either east or west is part of that. Doug knows that he can negotiate in good faith from that point on and be pretty much guaranteed that he will never have to deal with a ratified T/A.

I would love to see the agreement that he signed with AA unions. If it is in effect a contract that takes effect on day one of the integration, he has just created the above scenario.

Since Doug Parker has a bad history of talking out of both sides of this mouth, I wonder if this rumor will amount to a hill of beans. I thought the same reading the press release..where do you US guys stand and what are you to gain? It seemed like we were getting something for nothing they way they all talked today. A lot of us aren't dumb enough to take the press releases at face value, nor do we have the utmost faith in our union leadership half the time and any type of management...especially one that cut his teeth at AA!

 

[FlyUs]

Be careful AA.. he will close your crew bases

 

[Beancounter]

Interesting, 7 year fence. Agreed to by whom? Does not matter how irrelevant you think USAPA is they ARE mine and your union in this merger. Doug telling APA 7 year fences really means nothing. What he can do is agree to pay APA whatever he wants. Fences etc fall into the union side of things. So once Doug pays them Delta+3 why ratify anything else?

Now if you have seen IN WRITING from the company in a legally binding document that says the Delta +3% is only good upon joint US/AWA/AA contract then thats a different story. I suspect knowing Tempe's love to squeeze a dollar that it does not. All he needs is APA to be on board to get the merger done, he does not need east or west for that.

Have you seen such a document?

i suspect we will end up seeing a 3 pilot group airline for a good many years if this comes about. Doug has lots of practice running a 2 group one already.

Sure Doug can give them a 7 year fence, management and the majority rules. If you don't like it then tththpppphpphh he he, sue them, hahah ahah a ahhahah.

I'm sorry, totally uncalled for, the irony got to me. I'll try and behave myself.

Bean

 

[Move2CLT]

Interesting, 7 year fence. Agreed to by whom? Does not matter how irrelevant you think USAPA is they ARE mine and your union in this merger. Doug telling APA 7 year fences really means nothing. What he can do is agree to pay APA whatever he wants. Fences etc fall into the union side of things. So once Doug pays them Delta+3 why ratify anything else?

Now if you have seen IN WRITING from the company in a legally binding document that says the Delta +3% is only good upon joint US/AWA/AA contract then thats a different story. I suspect knowing Tempe's love to squeeze a dollar that it does not. All he needs is APA to be on board to get the merger done, he does not need east or west for that.

Have you seen such a document?

i suspect we will end up seeing a 3 pilot group airline for a good many years if this comes about. Doug has lots of practice running a 2 group one already.

Man, you sound like you've never been though a merger.

The APA has, essentially, negotiated a new contract. Yes, the company did say that only a framework was agreed to with a contract to be hammered out in the next 60 days. What is actually going to be hammered out in the next 60 days is the minutia.

The Delta +3%, PBS, retirement won't be gutted, 14% DC, etc.

You won't see a three pilot group in September - yes, that's how soon this will happen. You're days of USAPA's BS are completely over.

To clarify, he doesn't need the EAST. We're along for the ride and by sitting back we'll see USAPA disappear, Nic implemented, and a new contract in one big wave.

Its been a good day because USAPA's end is near.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Since Doug Parker has a bad history of talking out of both sides of this mouth, I wonder if this rumor will amount to a hill of beans. I thought the same reading the press release..where do you US guys stand and what are you to gain? It seemed like we were getting something for nothing they way they all talked today. A lot of us aren't dumb enough to take the press releases at face value, nor do we have the utmost faith in our union leadership half the time and any type of management...especially one that cut his teeth at AA!

Was out flying all day today. As far as we know none of the US unions has even been approached concerning this subject.

My question is a simple one. Doug can promise pay as far as I know. But promising fences and other things like that clearly is not just a Doug and APA thing.

As far as where we stand? No idea at this point, all we know is what we read in the Tempe and APA press release. So in effect I would say that whatever he is promising you guys does not amount to much more than he has told us...which is nothing.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Man, you sound like you've never been though a merger.

The APA has, essentially, negotiated a new contract. Yes, the company did say that only a framework was agreed to with a contract to be hammered out in the next 60 days. What is actually going to be hammered out in the next 60 days is the minutia.

The Delta +3%, PBS, retirement won't be gutted, 14% DC, etc.

You won't see a three pilot group in September - yes, that's how soon this will happen. You're days of USAPA's BS are completely over.

To clarify, he doesn't need the EAST. We're along for the ride and by sitting back we'll see USAPA disappear, Nic implemented, and a new contract in one big wave.

Its been a good day because USAPA's end is near.

Again a question. If Doug intends to have us as one group under one contract etc. That means he will have to reinstate the East retirements to match whatever deal AA has, as well as bump us all up to Delta+3% etc. What do you think the chances are of that given Tempe's track record?

And to Beancounter. Yep I fully agree with you Doug can hammer out whatever lopsided deal he wants, up to and including paying the AA guys different wages than the east and west and has the voting horsepower to push it through with 10000 strong AA pilots. In effect he can push a B scale through for us if he likes. Didn't think about that one while you were busy sticking your tongue out at me huh?

 

[Beancounter]

Again a question. If Doug intends to have us as one group under one contract etc. That means he will have to reinstate the East retirements to match whatever deal AA has, as well as bump us all up to Delta+3% etc. What do you think the chances are of that given Tempe's track record?

And to Beancounter. Yep I fully agree with you Doug can hammer out whatever lopsided deal he wants, up to and including paying the AA guys different wages than the east and west and has the voting horsepower to push it through with 10000 strong AA pilots. In effect he can push a B scale through for us if he likes. Didn't think about that one while you were busy sticking your tongue out at me huh?

Keroseneuser,

C'mon you have to admit that after the recent appeals board turnover, USAPA having to sue to protect it's union rights is pretty friggin hilarious. I'm well aware that if the east gets it in the shorts the west will probably get it in the shorts too. Here's to both of us NOT taking it in the shorts.

Bean

 

[BoeingBoy]

But promising fences and other things like that clearly is not just a Doug and APA thing.

Not necessarily true - did not Parker put limitations on the US/HP seniority integration and did not the arbitrator comply?

As far as the three pilot groups thing, just remember one thing - US legally has only one pilot group and has had only one since USAPA petitioned the NMB for single carrier status and got it. There is a silver lining if that storm cloud, though - a merger will bring an end to USAPA having to relive the harm it did itself after it was first elected...

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

Keroseneuser,

C'mon you have to admit that after the recent appeals board turnover, USAPA having to sue to protect it's union rights is pretty friggin hilarious. I'm well aware that if the east gets it in the shorts the west will probably get it in the shorts too. Here's to both of us NOT taking it in the shorts.

Bean

Agreed. thats the point i am trying to make here. The crowd that is rejiocing over USAPAs demise in this scenario will probably lose the most. Think trying to overcome a 2400 to 1600 voting advantage was bad just think how boned we are going to be when its 4000 to 10000+

 

[Keroseneuser]

Not necessarily true - did not Parker put limitations on the US/HP seniority integration and did not the arbitrator comply?

As far as the three pilot groups thing, just remember one thing - US legally has only one pilot group and has had only one since USAPA petitioned the NMB for single carrier status and got it. There is a silver lining if that storm cloud, though - a merger will bring an end to USAPA having to relive the harm it did itself after it was first elected...

Jim

Everyone is going under the assumption that Doug intends to pay all of the airline delta+3%. I think that is wishful thinking given their track record.

 

[KTM300]

Man, you sound like you've never been though a merger.

The APA has, essentially, negotiated a new contract. Yes, the company did say that only a framework was agreed to with a contract to be hammered out in the next 60 days. What is actually going to be hammered out in the next 60 days is the minutia.

The Delta +3%, PBS, retirement won't be gutted, 14% DC, etc.

You won't see a three pilot group in September - yes, that's how soon this will happen. You're days of USAPA's BS are completely over.

To clarify, he doesn't need the EAST. We're along for the ride and by sitting back we'll see USAPA disappear, Nic implemented, and a new contract in one big wave.

Its been a good day because USAPA's end is near.

I think Parker is intending to operate the new AA with 3 separate pilot groups. If you read the F/A scope language in the latest TA, that is exactly what he intends on doing. Not only that, since US Holding would be buying AA, I would imagine that no change of control would take place, leaving the east pilots stuck with LOA 93 wages. I found it interesting that in Bates letter to the AA pilots, he never once mentioned USAirways pilots or USAPA. Frankly, I really don't have a problem with a 7 year fence, as a matter of fact, it is working quite well right now. Parker will run one airline, with most employee groups merged, with the 3 pilot groups separate for another 7. It is just another set of books!

 

[Keroseneuser]

I think Parker is intending to operate the new AA with 3 separate pilot groups. If you read the F/A scope language in the latest TA, that is exactly what he intends on doing. Not only that, since US Holding would be buying AA, I would imagine that no change of control would take place, leaving the east pilots stuck with LOA 93 wages. I found it interesting that in Bates letter to the AA pilots, he never once mentioned USAirways pilots or USAPA. Frankly, I really don't have a problem with a 7 year fence, as a matter of fact, it is working quite well right now. Parker will run one airline, with most employee groups merged, with the 3 pilot groups separate for another 7. It is just another set of books!

I agree. I forgot about the language in the F/A T/A. but you are completly correct, it sounds like this was already on their mind when they came up with that.

 

[Kittyhawk]

This look appeals

 

[Move2CLT]

Again a question. If Doug intends to have us as one group under one contract etc. That means he will have to reinstate the East retirements to match whatever deal AA has, as well as bump us all up to Delta+3% etc. What do you think the chances are of that given Tempe's track record?

100%. We are all going to vote for this contract and no one is going to pass up something this lucrative.

And to Beancounter. Yep I fully agree with you Doug can hammer out whatever lopsided deal he wants, up to and including paying the AA guys different wages than the east and west and has the voting horsepower to push it through with 10000 strong AA pilots. In effect he can push a B scale through for us if he likes. Didn't think about that one while you were busy sticking your tongue out at me huh?

Again, this deal is going down with pay parity. We are all going to be working under the same contract.

Doug wants this to happen and he'll pay for it to be the number one airline.

 

[Move2CLT]

I think Parker is intending to operate the new AA with 3 separate pilot groups. If you read the F/A scope language in the latest TA, that is exactly what he intends on doing. Not only that, since US Holding would be buying AA, I would imagine that no change of control would take place, leaving the east pilots stuck with LOA 93 wages. I found it interesting that in Bates letter to the AA pilots, he never once mentioned USAirways pilots or USAPA. Frankly, I really don't have a problem with a 7 year fence, as a matter of fact, it is working quite well right now. Parker will run one airline, with most employee groups merged, with the 3 pilot groups separate for another 7. It is just another set of books!

This airline will not be run with three separate pilot groups. The NMB will declare the APA the carrier's CBA (without a vote) and we will vote, as ONE union, on the contract that Doug has negotiated with the APA.

That contract will pass because the west will vote for it as will the APA.

That's the reason USAPA is never mentioned. Because they just don't matter.