Tulsa AMT movement.

[WeAAsles]

My take is that there is a document out there signed by the TWU and IAM thats forcing us to go into this Association, an Association the TWU side does not want but our leaders claim we cant get out of

Yes Bob that was called the Association agreement. Claim huh? Why don't YOU take it to a Lawyer and see if there is any way out of it? I would have to assume that your President already did that, thus the reason why he wrote to the NMB directly to express his disapproval?


likewise there is a Letter out there signed by the TWU and IAM where they agree that in Negotiations the objective will be to put us all in the IAMNPF, obviously if they could not get out of the Association they cant unilaterally get out of the Pension Agreement either. If they cant get us out of one they wont be able to get us out of the other.

Here you are Bob. Here's that agreement.

http://twu514.org/files/2013/05/TWU-IAM-Joint-Agreement-on-Pensions.pdf
 
Perhaps it will be just going forward, or perhaps it will mean converting our frozen AA pension into the IAMNPF. So far all I've heard is there has not been discussion, not that there wont be and the signed letter pretty much makes it certain there will be.

We're still talking about this letter right Bob? I don't see ANYTHING in that letter about touching our frozen Pension?

http://twu514.org/files/2013/05/TWU-IAM-Joint-Agreement-on-Pensions.pdf

Or are you saying that you believe there is another (secret) letter floating around out there? One that I haven't heard a single solitary peep about with all of the people I talk to on both sides? People aren't that good at being hush hush I can tell you that Bob.

Another question I asked you a ways back that you didn't respond to. You stated that there were about 1400 people (mechanics I assume) that aren't living up to the full match potential? Just curious then (going forward) not going under what I consider to be the crazy assumption that the IAM Boogymen are coming after our frozen Pension, which item do you believe would cost the company more? The IAMPF or a match that 1400 people in "possibly" one group alone are not taking advantage of? I'd be willing to bet (unfortunately) that those numbers are even higher in fleet?
 

 

[swamt]

Look how bad the back and forth is going already, just wait until this association is in place it will get get worse 10 fold, how pathetic. Get those cards in guys, rid yourselves of the ever controlling TWU and IAM industrial unions.  

 

[swamt]

The TWU membership is proof you can get so accustomed to something it becomes normal. They are so used to getting screwed over they don't even react anymore. 
 
TWU conditioning at its finest. 

Exactly. And this explains why the AA guys just continue to allow the TWU to constantly continue to do so.  Sad to see, but very factual. When they wake up and smell the coffee it will be too late.  Still hoping your guys will get a clue before it is too late.  Good luck brother you and yours are going to need it...

 

[700UW]

Exactly. And this explains why the AA guys just continue to allow the TWU to constantly continue to do so.  Sad to see, but very factual. When they wake up and smell the coffee it will be too late.  Still hoping your guys will get a clue before it is too late.  Good luck brother you and yours are going to need it...

Guess you never read to make friends and influence people.

 

[WeAAsles]

Look how bad the back and forth is going already, just wait until this association is in place it will get get worse 10 fold, how pathetic. Get those cards in guys, rid yourselves of the ever controlling TWU and IAM industrial unions.

Get a contract done over there at SWA to PROVE how great your organization is and maybe even I will encourage these guys that they should jump ship.

How's that going again so far BTW?

 

[swamt]

Get a contract done over there at SWA to PROVE how great your organization is and maybe even I will encourage these guys that they should jump ship.

How's that going again so far BTW?

Not my job. If you all wait (like you guys do all the time) then it will be too late. Get a clue. I am NOT who you think I am.  Keep posting, you continue to look like a moron...

 

[WeAAsles]

Not my job. If you all wait (like you guys do all the time) then it will be too late. Get a clue. I am NOT who you think I am.  Keep posting, you continue to look like a moron...

Even us morons are interested in how contracts are coming along? Are you making any progress? Oh that right, NO YOU'RE NOT! Ain't that a real shame.

Well maybe that will change in a few more years?

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey swamt in one of those AMFA updates I read one of those SWA managers told your guys that they want to be an "Ultra Low Cost Carrier" I know that wasn't Kelly who said that to your guys. Who was that? I forget now and would rather not have to search for it?

Man your group does provide a lot of very disheartening updates.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Hey swamt in one of those AMFA updates I read one of those SWA managers told your guys that they want to be an "Ultra Low Cost Carrier" I know that wasn't Kelly who said that to your guys. Who was that? I forget now and would rather not have to search for it?

Man your group does provide a lot of very disheartening updates.

 
As opposed to what? Your groups disheartening actions? Thanks for the laugh

 

[WeAAsles]

 
As opposed to what? Your groups disheartening actions? Thanks for the laugh

Hey you enjoy that laugh. Lack of cash and a contract wouldn't have me laughing personally or maybe it would if that's the only thing I can have after 3 years?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Hey you enjoy that laugh. Lack of cash and a contract wouldn't have me laughing personally or maybe it would if that's the only thing I can have after 3 years?

 
Cash?  Cash? ..... Cash?
 
Oh the stuff that SWA AMFA mechanics have MORE of  ...... while they wait.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Good luck brother you and yours are going to need it...

I am not going to need it. I was smart enough to walk away from this mess (and by that I mean the AA/TWU conglomerate) and start a new career.
 
Once they froze the pension that was the beginning of the end of my career in the Airline business.
 
 
I will never forget.... I was in the shop getting my supplies together to go to the hanger and I overheard one of the old timers say "This is not a career anymore... it's a job, they took too much". I had doubts about leaving (American Airlines being one of the better paying employers in my area) before but that pretty much drove it home for me. I knew it was time to get out.
 
 
I unlike (I assume) most of the patrons of this forum have worked both sides at American Airlines (white and blue collar) and I have to say the white collar side was much more peaceful and productive. I did not feel miserable going to work every day like I did in Fleet Service. Given my experiences I can only conclude that the morale of the blue collar side is engineered by American Airlines and implemented with the cooperation of the TWU. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
 
Yes Bob that was called the Association agreement. Claim huh? Why don't YOU take it to a Lawyer and see if there is any way out of it? I would have to assume that your President already did that, thus the reason why he wrote to the NMB directly to express his disapproval?


 
 

In order for a contract to be enforceable there has to be an exchange of value. What was exchanged? What would the damages be for breach of contract? We had a guy who was ousted from the TWU, a guy who was accepting gratuities from an employer, a guy who was trying to make the TWU merge with the CWA sign deals that harmed this Union and you are saying that we could not get out of them? Any deal can be broken, you should know that after 2003 and 2012. The fact is that they made the choice not to fight it, we are not party to the agreement and the law gives them the ability to manage the Union as they see fit, in theory the members have a democratic right to either change the leadership or change the bargaining representative. 
 

 

Here you are Bob. Here's that agreement.

http://twu514.org/files/2013/05/TWU-IAM-Joint-Agreement-on-Pensions.pdf
 
 
Perhaps it will be just going forward, or perhaps it will mean converting our frozen AA pension into the IAMNPF. So far all I've heard is there has not been discussion, not that there wont be and the signed letter pretty much makes it certain there will be.

We're still talking about this letter right Bob? I don't see ANYTHING in that letter about touching our frozen Pension?

http://twu514.org/files/2013/05/TWU-IAM-Joint-Agreement-on-Pensions.pdf
 

 
Where does it say they wont?  Where did I say the letter says anything about whether the intent is just going forward or going back?  I said the letter only makes one thing clear, they intend to get us all in the IAMNPF and it does not set any limits as far as our frozen pension. You seem to be switching tactics here, in one post you are saying that we should not take anything off the table, defending the right to put anything on the table, now you seem to be saying that because it doesn't explicitely say that they are going after the Frozen Pension that they can't. Well  this could be put to bed, all we need is a letter from the IAM and TWU saying there is not intent on including the Frozen part in there and that part of the discussion is over. The only answers we have received in writing is that they have not discussed, not that they will not entertain it. 


 

Another question I asked you a ways back that you didn't respond to. You stated that there were about 1400 people (mechanics I assume) that aren't living up to the full match potential? Just curious then (going forward) not going under what I consider to be the crazy assumption that the IAM Boogymen are coming after our frozen Pension, which item do you believe would cost the company more? The IAMPF or a match that 1400 people in "possibly" one group alone are not taking advantage of? I'd be willing to bet (unfortunately) that those numbers are even higher in fleet?
 

 
Dont recall stating any number as far as mechanics because the number I saw was for the entire TWU. I said over 3000 TWU were not getting the full match. My guess is the vast majority would be Fleet Service because the average age of mechanics is around 55 and they would have been putting in around 5.5% prior to the match.  I believe that we should be proposing a contribution, like the other Unions on the property got for their members and we should be asking for a parity with what the Pilots get. A 17% Contribution would cost more and put much more money in our pockets, money we could borrow against in the here and now and money we could pass on when we die.   According to the IAM handout 10 years in the IAMNPF would be around an $850/month pension at 65, $382.5/month at 55  with ten years in the plan. So the total value on average would be around $96000 over a lifetime with around $40,000 in contributions. With the 17% contribution on all hours worked after 10 years a mechanic would accumulate roughly $200,000 with modest investment returns, if he matched that closer to $400,000.  So under those terms a 45 year old mechanic today could probably retire at 55 but not under the IAMNPF terms. The monthly interest on his $200k would be more than his monthly pension payment from the IAMNPF. Lets say the Association was only able to get half of what the APA got for their members, that would still be worth considerably more, on average, than the IAMNPF and the more hours you work the more you get, unlike the IAMNPF. 
 
Our argument in negotiations could be that since we do not get profit sharing we want a defined contribution to our 401K, something they have already agreed to with other work groups and down the road if competitors profit sharing disappeared the rate could be renegotiated. A 17% contribution still leaves AA ahead of Delta in that its only 11.5% more than they match now and Deltas profit sharing has been higher than 11%. Thats a fairly good starting point. 

 

[WeAAsles]

In order for a contract to be enforceable there has to be an exchange of value. What was exchanged? What would the damages be for breach of contract? We had a guy who was ousted from the TWU, a guy who was accepting gratuities from an employer, a guy who was trying to make the TWU merge with the CWA sign deals that harmed this Union and you are saying that we could not get out of them? Any deal can be broken, you should know that after 2003 and 2012. The fact is that they made the choice not to fight it, we are not party to the agreement and the law gives them the ability to manage the Union as they see fit, in theory the members have a democratic right to either change the leadership or change the bargaining representative. 

I wasn't asking for your opinion. I was asking if YOU or your Local went to their or YOUR own personal Lawyer to see if the TWU could get out of the Association? You alluded that you perhaps don't believe that the International guys did check that out so I wanted to know if you double checked or verified that through Legal consultation?

And on the last sentence, yes they can. They have 6 more days.
 
 
Where does it say they wont?  Where did I say the letter says anything about whether the intent is just going forward or going back?  I said the letter only makes one thing clear, they intend to get us all in the IAMNPF and it does not set any limits as far as our frozen pension. You seem to be switching tactics here, in one post you are saying that we should not take anything off the table, defending the right to put anything on the table, now you seem to be saying that because it doesn't explicitely say that they are going after the Frozen Pension that they can't. Well this could be put to bed, all we need is a letter from the IAM and TWU saying there is not intent on including the Frozen part in there and that part of the discussion is over. The only answers we have received in writing is that they have not discussed, not that they will not entertain it. 

What tactics? I'm not 100% sure if they can't? I said that I'm 100% sure that they won't.  Otherwise yes I did say that all "conversations" should be left on the table. Even the one's that have no chance of coming to pass.

I still don't believe the Boogyman is hiding anywhere near my bed though.
 
Dont recall stating any number as far as mechanics because the number I saw was for the entire TWU. I said over 3000 TWU were not getting the full match. My guess is the vast majority would be Fleet Service because the average age of mechanics is around 55 and they would have been putting in around 5.5% prior to the match.  I believe that we should be proposing a contribution, like the other Unions on the property got for their members and we should be asking for a parity with what the Pilots get. A 17% Contribution would cost more and put much more money in our pockets, money we could borrow against in the here and now and money we could pass on when we die.   According to the IAM handout 10 years in the IAMNPF would be around an $850/month pension at 65, $382.5/month at 55  with ten years in the plan. So the total value on average would be around $96000 over a lifetime with around $40,000 in contributions. With the 17% contribution on all hours worked after 10 years a mechanic would accumulate roughly $200,000 with modest investment returns, if he matched that closer to $400,000.  So under those terms a 45 year old mechanic today could probably retire at 55 but not under the IAMNPF terms. The monthly interest on his $200k would be more than his monthly pension payment from the IAMNPF. Lets say the Association was only able to get half of what the APA got for their members, that would still be worth considerably more, on average, than the IAMNPF and the more hours you work the more you get, unlike the IAMNPF. 

Ok I really like this one. It's too cute. Your going to compare a pie in the sky 17% ethereal proposal to the "current" contribution rate to the IAMPF of $2.00 per hour for your group? C'mon Bob at least play fair. (Not shilling for the IAMPF but) Since you're using 7's in your formula let's say you do get "offered" the IAMPF (Or forced into) but the company agrees to an increase of the rate to $7.00 per hour replacing the 2. 

Now that 55 YO member goes up from $850.00 per month to $2,239.20 per month (leaving at 65 with no deductions). Your member lived a clean healthy lifestyle and get's in a good 20 years before passing. So 20 years of IAMPF payouts comes in at $537,408.  And I'm also going to assume that they continue to participate in the 401k albeit with no more match. Now with your 7% above Delta or UPS/Fedex wages putting in just 5.5% (standalone) to your 401k that member is looking at some hefty coin.

Bob if your going to do a formula in the future you may want to do one that's at least fair to what you are throwing out there?  
 
Our argument in negotiations could be that since we do not get profit sharing we want a defined contribution to our 401K, something they have already agreed to with other work groups and down the road if competitors profit sharing disappeared the rate could be renegotiated. A 17% contribution still leaves AA ahead of Delta in that its only 11.5% more than they match now and Deltas profit sharing has been higher than 11%. Thats a fairly good starting point. 

You do realize that the APFA only secured their current tiered formula for 5 years right? 3% up to 9.9% if the member is over 50. After the 5 years runs it's course it reverts back to the same formula we currently have.

So let me get this straight? You want Delta plus 7%, keep all the jobs we have and a 17% 401k match? Or do you want UPS or FedEx wages? I'm guessing that you also want our medical costs to be lowered too right?

 

[2ndGENAMT]

Get a contract done over there at SWA to PROVE how great your organization is and maybe even I will encourage these guys that they should jump ship.
How's that going again so far BTW?

The entire industry is waiting to see how far the TWU lowers the bar!