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TWA's employees should have gotten some credit for some of their years at TWA - if even half had gotten just a little of the credit, it would have put an equal number of AA employees on the street as well. I can see why AA folks want TWA folks at the bottom - simply to save their collective butts. If it weren't for TWA, many of you would be out on the street right now. I think that you should be thankful for TWA for that reason, if for no other. They are the ONLY reason many of you are hanging onto your jobs right now.
Personally, I'm finding it fascinating (and very sad) to watch AA dismantle nearly everything TWA brought with them. They did the same thing with Reno Air and Air Cal. Buy the airline, add a bunch of disgruntled employees to the bottom of the seniority lists, get rid of all of their planes, routes and many of their employees when the time is right. What exactly did AA want with any one of these airlines?
Personally, I'm finding it fascinating (and very sad) to watch AA dismantle nearly everything TWA brought with them. They did the same thing with Reno Air and Air Cal. Buy the airline, add a bunch of disgruntled employees to the bottom of the seniority lists, get rid of all of their planes, routes and many of their employees when the time is right. What exactly did AA want with any one of these airlines?
Whats just and fair? All the AAer's on the street. Will that make you all feel better? For all the talk about how selfish AAer's are. I see a bunch of former TW people looking to add AAers as padding against a layoff of themselves.
John,
We didn't have to compete with you, you were going out of business. AMR bought you in one of their half-thought out management blunders to keep up with United/USAirways. Now after expending billions to buy and keep you afloat and assuming 3.5 billion in debt TWA doesn't look like such a good deal, especially with all the labor strife throughout the ranks.
At this point, I wish we never even had seen you. We'd take the furloughs ourselves, but at least we'd be a whole union, not with a bunch of crybabies going off with the Brady bunch's A- In Charge of A- fake union and shouting about lawsuits when they'd just be putting in applications while collecting unemployment otherwise.
You're a '96 hire at TWA. But you didn't come on the property at AA until '01. I don't care how much time you had before, it wasn't at AA. Eagle pilots with 10 years at AMR get no credit when they come over to the mainline. Why should you get more?
Well we gave you more, for 48% of the original cadre of pilots, and we worked out a deal to protect your careers. Now due to no fault of any of the labor groups, AMR is furloughing. And the last one on board is the first one to go. And as much as you want to kick and scream about fair, you didn't come to AA until April 10, 2001.
That's just the way it is, nothing personal.
We didn't have to compete with you, you were going out of business. AMR bought you in one of their half-thought out management blunders to keep up with United/USAirways. Now after expending billions to buy and keep you afloat and assuming 3.5 billion in debt TWA doesn't look like such a good deal, especially with all the labor strife throughout the ranks.
At this point, I wish we never even had seen you. We'd take the furloughs ourselves, but at least we'd be a whole union, not with a bunch of crybabies going off with the Brady bunch's A- In Charge of A- fake union and shouting about lawsuits when they'd just be putting in applications while collecting unemployment otherwise.
You're a '96 hire at TWA. But you didn't come on the property at AA until '01. I don't care how much time you had before, it wasn't at AA. Eagle pilots with 10 years at AMR get no credit when they come over to the mainline. Why should you get more?
Well we gave you more, for 48% of the original cadre of pilots, and we worked out a deal to protect your careers. Now due to no fault of any of the labor groups, AMR is furloughing. And the last one on board is the first one to go. And as much as you want to kick and scream about fair, you didn't come to AA until April 10, 2001.
That's just the way it is, nothing personal.
I think you've finally gotten the picture, cartpusher.
What's happening now is exactly what the AAL unions knew AA would do. The APA doesn't make corporate decisions . . like purchasing RENO, TWA, etc . . . AMR does. The best the AAL unions can do is to try and protect themselves from corporate decisions that are likely to have adverse impacts on them. AMR's modus operandi combined with the floundering economy last spring made this play-out easy to predict. The atrocities of 11 Sep just accelerated the process. Had TWAers been given DOH or anything close to it, then they would be flying AA equip and routes while people that interviewed and were hired by AMERCIAN AIRLINES would be on the street . . all the while TWA planes, routes, and "value" was being dumped by AMR. By any measure, if AA had not purchased TWA's assets and given TWAers jobs, they'd ALL be on "permanent furlough." As it was, the pilots especially got a very, very good integration deal compared to any realistic alternative scenario for TWA. When I see "news" spectacles like the public farce in St Louis the other day, it gets my blood up. With about a third of TWA pilots gleaning the benefits of the APA contract, yet doing everything they can to try and undermine MY union, it takes a lot of will-power to look at a TWA guy and not think "arrogant loser." So far I've been winning the battle with my psyche, but as this kind of thing goes on and on, it's just a matter of time before my attitude shifts as well.
BTW, if TWA is such a great "value," does anyone think that if the purchase had be planned for finalization in June or July last year (assuming TWA would have still been in biz) that the deal would have actually been consumated? Don't kid yourself. TWA aircraft would have been returned to the leasors, the company shutdown and TWA people would have been on the street. TWA's business would have been parsed out to the other airlines, and likely AAL would have gleaned the lion's share, which would have softened furloughs at AAL after 9/11.
What's happening now is exactly what the AAL unions knew AA would do. The APA doesn't make corporate decisions . . like purchasing RENO, TWA, etc . . . AMR does. The best the AAL unions can do is to try and protect themselves from corporate decisions that are likely to have adverse impacts on them. AMR's modus operandi combined with the floundering economy last spring made this play-out easy to predict. The atrocities of 11 Sep just accelerated the process. Had TWAers been given DOH or anything close to it, then they would be flying AA equip and routes while people that interviewed and were hired by AMERCIAN AIRLINES would be on the street . . all the while TWA planes, routes, and "value" was being dumped by AMR. By any measure, if AA had not purchased TWA's assets and given TWAers jobs, they'd ALL be on "permanent furlough." As it was, the pilots especially got a very, very good integration deal compared to any realistic alternative scenario for TWA. When I see "news" spectacles like the public farce in St Louis the other day, it gets my blood up. With about a third of TWA pilots gleaning the benefits of the APA contract, yet doing everything they can to try and undermine MY union, it takes a lot of will-power to look at a TWA guy and not think "arrogant loser." So far I've been winning the battle with my psyche, but as this kind of thing goes on and on, it's just a matter of time before my attitude shifts as well.
BTW, if TWA is such a great "value," does anyone think that if the purchase had be planned for finalization in June or July last year (assuming TWA would have still been in biz) that the deal would have actually been consumated? Don't kid yourself. TWA aircraft would have been returned to the leasors, the company shutdown and TWA people would have been on the street. TWA's business would have been parsed out to the other airlines, and likely AAL would have gleaned the lion's share, which would have softened furloughs at AAL after 9/11.
Thareso has said what a lot of people believe but won't say.
I helped generate millions in profits that AA saw over the past 20 years; those same millions which were used to purchase TWA's assets and assume their debts.
I helped generate millions in profits that AA saw over the past 20 years; those same millions which were used to purchase TWA's assets and assume their debts.
When its your seniority and your butt on the line then tell us. Right now its not.You have no stake and nothing to lose in this. Former TWA people started working for AA April 10, 2001. Like every AAer before them they started accrueing occupational seniority that first day.
Are You physic? No, just a guess? Do you know anything about our CBA? No, probley not. Let me tell you we have a number of protections against layoffs. Our situation would be easier with out the cost of bringing TWA into AA.
That statement really shows how little you know about whats happening at this airline.
With AirCal AA got what it wanted quick access, slots and space at SNA. TWA, was redundant in NY and the caribbean. It offered AA the chance to operate with a third midwest hub city to take the pressure of ORD and DFW. The idea was to do more O and D at DFW and ORD while funneling treansfer passengers thru STL.cart pusherersonally, I'm finding it fascinating (and very sad) to watch AA dismantle nearly everything TWA brought with them. They did the same thing with Reno Air and Air Cal. Buy the airline, add a bunch of disgruntled employees to the bottom of the seniority lists, get rid of all of their planes, routes and many of their employees when the time is right. What exactly did AA want with any one of these airlines?
Well its the former TWA people with the screw in there wings, law suits against the company and APFA. Now the letter TWAers are putting out. Involving the customer in all this, is really sinking to new lows. It seems some former TWer's wont be happy until AA suffers the fate TW did.
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What about the "Hired Not Acquired" buttons I've seen adorning Native Americans?
Well its the former TWA people with the screw in there wings, law suits against the company and APFA. Now the letter TWAers are putting out. Involving the customer in all this, is really sinking to new lows. It seems some former TWer's wont be happy until AA suffers the fate TW did.
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What about the "Hired Not Acquired" buttons I've seen adorning Native Americans?
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I find that as distasteful.
The holier than thou attitudes from a few around simply amaze me! Sure no one wants to get caught up in the craziness of mergers and acquisitions, but they are a fact of life in this business. That said, a sense of fairness, dignity, and respect should rule, alas it is not to be. The hubris displayed by a certain company and its unions has the makings of a greek tragedy.
Oh please fairness, dignity, respect. What you mean is give me everything I want. You judge it only from your point of view. Sad, you scream unfair when all you didn't get was 100% occupational seniority in the whole AA system. You guys did get it in 2 bases. Of course that isn't enough. You wanted to make sure you no former TW person will be layed off. That you guys having completed a little over a year here at AA be able to go to any base and fly any trips. Bump the people who worked here for years in to, and on reserve and availability. A greek tragedy. Is that what you wish on the this place who offered you a job. While every other airline was content to wait and watch you die. Like buzzards circling overhead. Is that what you hope for, the employees who built this place. You would like or seem to relish in the idea that AA could suffer and die. All because you didn't get 100% occupational seniority. Your idea of FAIR.
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Of course management still thinks of the TWA deal as a "win". We do they ever admit a mistake? If they ever do admit this was a major fiasco, it will be long after Carty has retired and moved on. They have though admitted that it has been a mistake to blame everything on the unions and labor. It took years and years to finally come to this conclusion though.
Lets see who its a win for
TW, raises after bankruptcy....I bet US Airways employees really have pitty for you guys!
TW, raises after bankruptcy....I bet US Airways employees really have pitty for you guys!
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