First Class and Premium Passengers

[meechy36]

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On 6/1/2003 11:31:42 AM pricklyheat wrote:

Thanks Wild Onion,

But, You are telling me that out of 55 plus Advantage Members. A number high enough to warrant comment by the gate agent. No one qualified for a premium seat over an employee? Ten employees in First Class? A gentleman having to hold his only carry-on because those 10 loaded all the overheads to the limit (more than 2 carry-ons on a full flight I might add) and then had to wait at the gate upon arrival for the FA to secure it from behind the last row of FC seats. Unacceptable.

TRY AGAIN

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Prikely heat
I have been a crewmember with this company for 16 years and not once have I ever bumped a legitimate customer out of first class. As was posted earlier, everyone and his brother is an AAdvantage member, I am one from my credit card. There is a world of difference between an AAdvantage member and an Elite AAdvantage member when it comes to perks. If any of those 55 AAdvantage members were eligible for a LEGITIMATE upgrade they would have got it before a deadheading crew, whether you believe that or not. As for your question of a legitimate upgrade, that is someone who uses miles, an AAdvantage Gold, Platinum or Executive Platinum traveling on a full fare coach ticket which is eligible for a complimentary upgrade or someone using a VIPOW. As for the carry on issue, I am sure that you are not aware that we are NOT ALLOWED to check our luggage while deadheading, it must be kept with us at all times. If these were non revs they would most likely have had to check some of what they were carrying.
I am not sure if I get your reasoning, did you feel that since the first class seats were empty they should have just been given away? I don''t know what business you are in but I am sure that you are not going to dilute your product by giving it away to every Tom, Dick and Harry that isn''t eligible for it. This is one of the perks of our job and we never know from one fight to another if we are in first class or the last row of coach in a middle seat. I don''t begrudge you the perks of your job please don''t be jealous of ours.
Mike-BOS

 

[MiAAmi]

I ask Mr prickly, what would be the solution for you? Is seeing crewmembers sitting in F/C an issue for you? Should crewmembers always sit in coach? Should empty seats in F/C be given away to the most eligable AAdvantage member and who might that be? If there are 50 or so aadvantage members on board how many are going to use their upgrades for such a short flight like STL-DFW?

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 6/1/2003 5:40:33 PM MiAAmi wrote:

I ask Mr prickly, what would be the solution for you? Is seeing crewmembers sitting in F/C an issue for you? Should crewmembers always sit in coach? Should empty seats in F/C be given away to the most eligable AAdvantage member and who might that be? If there are 50 or so aadvantage members on board how many are going to use their upgrades for such a short flight like STL-DFW?

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Crew members are obviously a lower class of folks ya know. Wouldn''t want the working class up front. The big question is WHAT DID YOU PAY FOR WHEN YOU BOUGHT YOUR TICKET? WHAT DID YOU GET? In the past, as a deadheading crewmember, I ALWAYS took my bags with me. Why? First, there is company information and security procedures in my flight publications (used to have the entry codes to EVER company door at ever airport served) and they shouldn''t be doing the tour around the baggage carousel under the watchful eye of the TSA. second, The company may be deadheading me to fly out agin 45 minutes after arrival. Should we delay an entire flight while I wait for bags and go through security again so you can carry extra stuff on board?

 

[gogogadget]

Prickly heat,

Get over it, no matter where you go or what you do, there are always people trying to get something for nothing. I have seen the tricks many Platinums and other precious metals play trying to beat the system. Point is, although you may think you know what you know, you really dont. If it warranted an announcement of the 50 or so people you claim, not everyone qualifies for the upgrade, wants the upgrade or warrants the upgrade. Just because you see uniformed crewmembers in BC or First does not mean that they were given prefrential treatment.

Non rev travel is on a Space Available basis only. Company business is o positive space priority in coach with the ability to upgrade to First if it is available, after the upgrades. (Unless you are don carty going on vacation)

I sat in First the other day, a woman that was an upgrade received her boarding pass at the same time, she then proceded to change her attitude to "My stuff doesnt stink" and proceded into BC with an oversized overweight bag and demanded that the FA put it in the overhead bin. After a few smart and unpolite words from this lady (totally degrading) she decided to put it up herself without respect for what the FA was doing at the time and with total lack of patience. This was an UPGRADE and I saw the upgrade happen. Not all upgrades warrant, rate or want the upgrade especially on every single flight. Employees even on the aircraft, in uniform or not (unless they bought the full fare ticket) always travel Space available, and it isnt free.

Did any of your precious metal fans get left behind?

 

[MrMarky]

Despite the fact that "flydecoop" attributed comments on this topic to me in a post above, I have not posted on this thread. But I will chime in now.

I agree with Prickly. Many of you crew members have stated that you are entitled to your perks, and how dare we paying customers, the ones your company is in business to serve question that. Well I do not begrudge you your perks. However, I cannot think of a single business in any industry that provides perks to its employees at the expense of its customers.

The Microsoft example as well as all the others, don''t fit. No Microsoft employee is getting free software at the expense of a Microsoft customer being denied access to the product. The product is not limited in distribution. First class seats are limited. They are there for the customers, not the employees. Otherwise, just set aside a section of the cabin for crew members only, such as is done on some international flights (as a result of union contract negotiations) and they are reserved for the crews and unavailable to pax.

The value of a first class seat is way over rated. It ain''t what it used to be. In fact the entire flying experience ain''t what it used to be. First class represents a somewhat limited refuge from the otherwise unpleasant flying experience, at best. American Airline''s upgrade policy is a ripoff compared to some of your competition. Continental doesn''t require you to pay for an upgrade with miles or purchased coupons if you''re an elite level FF. Neither does Alaska or Northwest, all of whom are doing much better financially than AA. TWA did not either. It is an incentive to retain your best customers, meaning those who patronize you the most. How much they pay for a ticket is established by your company, not your customers. If someone is willing to pay through the nose, I have no problem with them being first in line for the limited number of perks available.

If you frequent a restaurant or hotel, you become recognized by the staff as a regular, ie a good customer. As a result, the staff will usually give you preferential treatment, because they see you as a good customer. They don''t usually take into account how much you pay for your meal or room. And they would never tell you that no table or room is available because they are reserved for their employees.

You seem to begrudge the "cheap" fares your elite customers may be paying and equate that with a legitimate right to deny them access to your airline''s so called "premium" service. Not to mention establishing that as the blame for your company''s financial failure -- it''s the customers fault, they''re not paying us enough! Welcome to the real world. What makes you think the ripoff prices your company was (and still tries) to gouge your best customers for was/is a fair value? You simply hold them hostage. A fair price is whatever the market will bear. And American has not hesitated to diminish the value of their product to reflect the "new reality" of what the market will bear.

The days of people actually buying first class tickets are long gone in large measure. It has become an upgrade perk for elite FF''s, especially on domestic flights. The quality of the product reflects that new reality. The quality of the coach product also reflects the new reality of what fare on average, coach can command. So MRTC is going away. Meal service has already went away and the trend is rapidly pointing towards paying for meals. It would be difficult to argue that the major carriers'' coach product is somehow superior to that of jetBlue. In fact the opposite argument is easier to support.

The bottom line is this: You cannot offer a product or service that consumers are unwilling to buy. So in order to survive you have to price your product competitively and restructure your business model to make it successful. Whatever perks the employees can get out of the deal are fine with me. But if you think that you are somehow entitled to recieve those perks at the visibly obvious expense of your most frequent customers, than you just don''t grasp reality. Please don''t think I''m anti-employee. I''m about as pro-employee as you can get. But you work in a service industry. It is the customers you are there to serve, both as a business and as employees.

 

[j7915]

If you frequent a restaurant or hotel, you become recognized by the staff as a regular, ie a good customer. As a result, the staff will usually give you preferential treatment, because they see you as a good customer. They don''t usually take into account how much you pay for your meal or room. And they would never tell you that no table or room is available because they are reserved for their employees.

Been there and done that. I have lived farr too often and too long in hotels, but if the preferential teatment is too blatant that is the last time I will frequent that place.

The company does send employees on field trips to get airplanes back into service, and that includes flight crews who deadhead to make a connection. If it takes first then that is accepted, you find coach cramped and tiresome, how about a flight crew that will turn around and fly a plane?

I have ridden many times in coach, and seen pilots back there, in uniform, but apparently on their commute to or from, i. e. not entitled to preferential treatment.

Judging by the appearance and behavior of too many first class paxs, they should be on Greyhound. You are correct, first ain''t what it used to be, but then neither is the clientel. I wish it were, I was too young to get the champaign back then and my parent''s share of the caviar was a poor consolation prize.

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/10/2003 2:27:06 AM MrMarky wrote:

I agree with Prickly. Many of you crew members have stated that you are entitled to your perks, and how dare we paying customers, the ones your company is in business to serve question that. Well I do not begrudge you your perks. However, I cannot think of a single business in any industry that provides perks to its employees at the expense of its customers.

The Microsoft example as well as all the others, don''t fit. No Microsoft employee is getting free software at the expense of a Microsoft customer being denied access to the product. The product is not limited in distribution. First class seats are limited. They are there for the customers, not the employees. Otherwise, just set aside a section of the cabin for crew members only, such as is done on some international flights (as a result of union contract negotiations) and they are reserved for the crews and unavailable to pax.

The value of a first class seat is way over rated. It ain''t what it used to be. In fact the entire flying experience ain''t what it used to be. First class represents a somewhat limited refuge from the otherwise unpleasant flying experience, at best. American Airline''s upgrade policy is a ripoff compared to some of your competition. Continental doesn''t require you to pay for an upgrade with miles or purchased coupons if you''re an elite level FF. Neither does Alaska or Northwest, all of whom are doing much better financially than AA. TWA did not either. It is an incentive to retain your best customers, meaning those who patronize you the most. How much they pay for a ticket is established by your company, not your customers. If someone is willing to pay through the nose, I have no problem with them being first in line for the limited number of perks available.


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What part about "EMPTY UNSOLD SEAT" did you not understand! The seat went unsold and no customer upgraded so Employees can now fly in it!! AA charges for its upgrades because its customers have shown they''re willing to pay for them. CO, NW and Alaska on the other hand MUST give theirs away to keep their Elite''s! Maybe someday AA will have to give upgrades away too but obviously some Yield/Revenue people say this is still working. Historically AA has done MUCH better than those airlines at attracting and keeping that class of passenger. AA is one of the few carriers in the world still flying three class aircraft with true First Class. AA is suffering financially because of its high costs and difficulty in attracting larger numbers of lesiure travelers who think AA is a "High Price" businessmans airline.

 

[Cart Pusher]

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On 6/11/2003 9:09:32 AM AAmech wrote:​

 

[kirkpatrick]

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On 6/10/2003 2:27:06 AM MrMarky wrote:

Well I do not begrudge you your perks. However, I cannot think of a single business in any industry that provides perks to its employees at the expense of its customers.

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The way you phrased that last sentence is what I disagree with. On Sunday, 6/8, I deadheaded in coach because FC was full. The load was booked at 11 (of 16 seats) so I assume the five additional were upgrades. FC seats were not available so the entire crew of two pilots and three FA''s sat in the back. That''s fine. Procedure was followed.

As for AA''s upgrade policy, you''ll have to take that up with them (I''m sure you have). TWA''s policy was more generous and TWA responded by putting in more FC seats (20 on the MD80, for example) and it still wasn''t always full. I often traveled up front, either while deadheading or on personal time, even with our more liberal upgrade policy.

As an employee, I value our premium passengers and want them to receive the extra treatment they deserve. But as an employee I want my perks, too. Travel benefits mean more than free coach seats; they mean sharply reduced FC travel as well, provided procedures are followed. An airplane is not a rock concert; you don''t all move forward when the doors close.

MK

 

[FibberMcGee]

 

[Winglet]

It''s probably a mute point anyway. I predict that FC goes away. Right now a transatlantic fare on 3 week advanced purchase is going for about $11k RT, and BC about $5k RT. I wonder how many of those sitting up front are actually paying a FC fare. Not many, I''ll bet.

The coach fare is about $900, making FC over 10x more costly. If nobody is paying for it, it''s going to go away. Witness what''s happening to MRTC.

It appears that what America wants is a Euro-charter type cattlecar and bus fare tickets. And that''s probably what they''re going to get.

 

[mga707]

Well, so much for Mr. Heat''s "I''m such a busy hardworking frequent-flying guy that I only have time to post here on weekends" shtick. Liar.
If this bozo''s not an out-and-out troll (a la the late unlamented "usinvestor"--hmmm, maybe it''s the same guy with a new way to rile people on a different board?), then he/she/it''s just a jerk, plain and simple. From now on he''s in my ''killfile''...
Hey, prick(ly), gimme some free medical stuff! Why, ''cause I deserve something for nothing like you seem to think you do, that''s why!

 

[kirkpatrick]

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On 6/11/2003 848 PM Winglet wrote:

It''s probably a mute point anyway. I predict that FC goes away.
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Maybe so, but I predict there will still be a premium cabin on most flights, especially international.

TWA did away with FC on international but kept an enhanced business class. The seating space and food were close to "true" FC, and we were able to sell more economy seats, while keeping enough premium seats for those willing to pay (and for deadheading crews, of course). It might not have saved us, but was a good move anyway.

MK

 

[AAmech]

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On 6/11/2003 1:30:29 PM Cart Pusher wrote:

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On 6/11/2003 9:09:32 AM AAmech wrote:


<
What part about "EMPTY UNSOLD SEAT" did you not understand!&nbsp; The seat went unsold and no customer upgraded so Employees can now fly in it!!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AA charges for its upgrades because&nbsp;its customers have&nbsp;shown they''re willing to&nbsp; pay for them.&nbsp; &nbsp; CO, NW and Alaska on the other hand MUST give theirs away to keep their Elite''s!&nbsp;&nbsp;Maybe someday AA will have to give&nbsp;upgrades away too&nbsp;but obviously some Yield/Revenue people say this is still working.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Historically AA has done MUCH better than those airlines at attracting and keeping that class of passenger.&nbsp; AA is one of the few carriers in the world still flying three class aircraft with true First Class.&nbsp;&nbsp; AA is suffering financially because of its high costs and difficulty in attracting larger numbers of &nbsp;lesiure travelers who think AA is a "High Price" businessmans airline.


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Surely you must be kidding!!! I work for Alaska and can tell you that we don''t need to give anything away to keep our elites, as evidenced by the difference in financial performance between Alaska and American. Alaska isn''t now, nor were we anytime recently, close to bankruptcy. If I were you I wouldn''t base a whole lot on what your yield/revenue people say. It''s obvious to many that your yield/revenue people don''t have a clue what they are doing. Finally, we at Alaska are welcoming more and more of YOUR former customers on board our airline every day. They are choosing to move their miles over to the Mileage Plan program, despite our current mileage agreement, and flying Alaska when they can rather than stay with American, where they feel their business is taken for granted. Incidentally, AA is one of MANY airlines in the WORLD still offering three class service on international routes. Singapore, British, Qantas, JAL, United, Lufthansa, Air New Zealand.... the list goes on and on and on. Unlike AA, however, the end of the three class product isn''t near for most of those airlines.

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Stop kidding yourself! If Alaska could charge for upgrades it would! They''re not running a charity, its a business! And your argument that AA is close to bankrupcy because they don''t give away upgrades is just silly. AA is in trouble because it has HIGH COSTS! High Costs because the whole airline is structured for these first class customers who were AA''s bread and butter before 9/11. Not to mention our prior genorous union contracts. Alaska has been doing quite well because it has LOW COSTS! If the unions at AA gave management contracts with similar pay , benifits and work rules, AA would also being doing well.
I''m sure many AA customers are going over to Alaska on the west coast. AA has drawn down quite a bit of service there and thats Alaska''s niche. I doubt there''s a stampede going on at DFW or MIA.
There are VERY few airlines in the world flying true first class. AA is one of two in the the US. The largest airline market in the world. Out of the HUNDREDS of airlines you named five and I think your incorrect about two of them. Has Alaska ever had a three class flight? I''m surprised they don''t have one now as you seem to think they''re being overrun with big spending elites (who won''t pay for upgrades)!

 

[MrMarky]

Hi Mark,

If there are empty seats up front I see absolutely nothing wrong with off-duty crew members taking them. I''ve sat next to employees many times. My point was simply that crew members should not be taking such seats at the expense of passengers who might legitimately qualify for them but be denied because an employee has the seat.

I thought that was the point of this discussion but maybe I misunderstood. If there are empty seats in first and no qualifying passengers wanting them, then I see no reason why off duty crew members can''t use them.

Take care,

Marky