TWU Chapter 11 - AA 1113 Filing

[Birdman]

Rumor: TWU Local 514 Shop Steward elections. Ballots will not be issued for Stores, Fleet Service and Building Cleaners. All questions are directed to the local Fleet Service president.

This can be substantiated rather easily if one of our TWU minions would care to respond.

 

[Buck]

Please See Docket # 687

 

[TWU informer]

Please See Docket # 687

Oh Joy, now comes James C Little and his attorney Levine to turn the Bankruptcy Proceedings into an Anti-Republican (Mitt Romney) Political Rhetoric tool

CUT THE CRAP AND REPRESENT THE MEMBERS YOU STUPID ASS FOOLS!!!!

Thousands of your members jobs are at stake, thousands of members pensions are at stake, and all you can do is whine about who American Eagle wants to hire to assist them and your reasoning is nothing more than political rhetoric.

Judge should slap your butts for wasting his time.

Bain is the consulting arm of Bain Capital, where "[l]ike.. . all the businesses Bain [Capital] invest in, the
primary goal with these companies [isn’t] job creation but making them more profitable and
valuable. This mean embracing aspects of capitalism that have unsettled some Americans:
laying off workers when necessary, expanding overseas to chase profits and paying top
executives significantly more than employees on lower rungs." Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and
the Gospel of ‘Creative Destruction,’ Washington Post, January 11, 2012, available at
www.washingtonpost.com.

As if embracing Capitalism is anti-American....Are you kidding me?

Did we hire a Bankruptcy Attorney or a Democratic National Committee member that will attempt to use the courts in futile attempt to attack republicans and since it is an election year she will be more focused on Politics than representing our interest?

Now I am going to have to write a letter to the Judge in response to this BS.

And to quote the "Washington Post" as a reasoning for a legal objection in a Bankruptcy Court is over the top and beyond belief.
What an embarrassment for the membership to endure. Now the lawyer fees can be classified an non-germane expenditures.

 

[FWAAA]

Seems to me to be a bit unusual to file an objection and cite no law. In contrast, the ad hoc committee of agents filed a similar objection this week and it was supported by quite a bit of legal argument with case citations (as expected). The political nonsense - that's just sad.

Well, if you hire an expensive law firm, they have to do something even if it's not very impressive.

 

[aapitbull]

:blink: ....I meant I was a no voter on the 2010 t/a. I have offered no opinion on any upcoming vote except to say it will be meaningless, as the conditions of the compAAny's proposals will likely be accepted by the judge. BTW, my vote would not be counted anyway since I'm a dues objector. My judgement in regard to what the compAAny proposes will reflect the realities bases on comparisons with what we would have gained by approving the 2010 t/a and what we will lose. The beating of the dead horse is rooted in emotion and not logic. I will wait for facts to emerge.

Give up arguing with those who think a yes vote would have changed things your not going to change their minds I have seen almost all of them post how much it has cost them personlly which tells you all you need to know, they say they want change and democracy and when faced with the outcome of the T/A vote that was democratic they bi%ch because it did not go their way, well that is democracy and yes people have a right to try to sway peoples votes one way or another but in the end each one of us is responsible for his or her vote not Bob,Gary or anyone else.

 

[iluvaa]

Give up arguing with those who think a yes vote would have changed things your not going to change their minds I have seen almost all of them post how much it has cost them personlly which tells you all you need to know, they say they want change and democracy and when faced with the outcome of the T/A vote that was democratic they bi%ch because it did not go their way, well that is democracy and yes people have a right to try to sway peoples votes one way or another but in the end each one of us is responsible for his or her vote not Bob,Gary or anyone else.

Really Don your leadership days are over go be a line mechanic hero

 

[enough already]

An odd occurance here at OH. We went from a 14 spare count of JT8s yesterday morning to 0 in the afternoon and were called in to work Saturday and Sunday OT. Where did those engines go?

 

[TWU informer]

Give up arguing with those who think a yes vote would have changed things your not going to change their minds I have seen almost all of them post how much it has cost them personlly which tells you all you need to know, they say they want change and democracy and when faced with the outcome of the T/A vote that was democratic they bi%ch because it did not go their way, well that is democracy and yes people have a right to try to sway peoples votes one way or another but in the end each one of us is responsible for his or her vote not Bob,Gary or anyone else.

What is wrong with taking the money and/or adding the loss value to the debate if the outcome would have been the same as you an the others with crystal balls claim?

The way I see it equals $16,000.00 plus dollars and then the outcome is the same if we use your wisdom.
OR we have none of that money and the outcome the same. Which is better?

And you want us to believe that not having that money is the correct direction, and even want to attempt to make us believe that pointing that out makes someone a less superior union man than you?

If the yes vote would have changed nothing then why not take the money?

Your personal attacks on YES voters ranks up there almost as high as your claims that you personally obtained enough cards in the AMFA drive while dismissing the hard work ALL of the Tulsa based organizers did for over 5 years to obtain them. Many people made sacrifices, but to hear you say it, it was ALL you man. Want to know why the AMP movement remained small and weak? Think about your inability to remove yourself from the "Big I" syndrome when speaking and you will have your answer.

 

[BoeingBoy]

6 spare JT8D's shown as located in TUL were in a motion to reject/abandon planes/engines. Seems like there were some in an earlier motion but I'm not sure.

Jim

 

[aapitbull]

Really Don your leadership days are over go be a line mechanic hero

I have never sought a leadership role I served as a TWU shop steward and worked for whats best for the members. If the members decide that my ideas do not mesh with theirs I am man enough to accept it and move on. If you voted yes then accept the fact that you got out voted and move on, I voted NO and would do the same tomorrow if the same circumstances where presented, if this means you or someone else no longer listens to what I have to say that was always your/their right.

For the record while I work at the line I believe we need to work together to move foward the TWU is now and always has been the problem in my eyes but go ahead and let their fear control your emtions in the end I am sure that will serve you well

 

[TWU informer]

6 spare JT8D's shown as located in TUL were in a motion to reject/abandon planes/engines. Seems like there were some in an earlier motion but I'm not sure.

Jim

I believe that is the direction AA is going. A motion was filed for an extension for time to reject leases, and the current rate overtime in the hangars and turbine building indicate that lease return is top priority right now while there are still enough people left on the payroll to get the jobs done. Not all of the lease aircraft owners are going to be treated the way those owning aircraft in the desert were treated. The delay in headcount cuts are a direct result of the need to get these aircraft and engines ready for a respectable return to the owners.

I look for overtime to last a while longer, and then a crash landing as we watch massive headcount cuts. I believe headcount cuts will be substantial enough that overtime will continue even as we watch employees leave the property on a RIF.

Rumor has it WARN letters will be out next week.

 

[aapitbull]

What is wrong with taking the money and/or adding the loss value to the debate if the outcome would have been the same as you an the others with crystal balls claim?

The way I see it equals $16,000.00 plus dollars and then the outcome is the same if we use your wisdom.
OR we have none of that money and the outcome the same. Which is better?

And you want us to believe that not having that money is the correct direction, and even want to attempt to make us believe that pointing that out makes someone a less superior union man than you?

If the yes vote would have changed nothing then why not take the money?

Your personal attacks on YES voters ranks up there almost as high as your claims that you personally obtained enough cards in the AMFA drive while dismissing the hard work ALL of the Tulsa based organizers did for over 5 years to obtain them. Many people made sacrifices, but to hear you say it, it was ALL you man. Want to know why the AMP movement remained small and weak? Think about your inability to remove yourself from the "Big I" syndrome when speaking and you will have your answer.

Just to be clear you lead the AMFA drive In Tulsa, you knew Dan and the boys not me you decided to give up the postion, you ask me to take it on then you got upset when Dell and Lee and others started to talk to me instead of you. As far as AMP goes again others came to me and asked that I help get it started If it had been my decision we would have tried AMFA again not AMP but I {put the big I aside} and did what was asked of me, you on the otherhand set on your A## and did nothing you could have started a drive and called it whatever you wanted, the kicker here is I would have supported you even though we have our differences because my goal is now and always has been to get the TWU off the property.

Secondly it is your need to be right about the T/A that is driving this yes/no debate the facts are we held a vote let, me say that again WE HAD A VOTE because you cannot seem to wrap your brain around that and like it or not you lost by a very large margin yet you are on here daily telling {THE MAJORITY} that we where wrong and if that was not enough you attack me for having a big ego talk about hypocrisy, I spoke up only after reading the mess you where posting over and over again.

Finally the difference is simple you wanted the money regardless of whether the contract was a concession as a whole while I and many others postion was and is we have voluntarily given up all that we were going to give, if they wanted more they would have to take it and most importantly we won the vote 2 to 1. yes I know you with your superior brain and logic made the right choice and the majority was wrong. God knows you are not going to let us forget it.

 

[TWU informer]

Just to be clear you lead the AMFA drive In Tulsa, you knew Dan and the boys not me you decided to give up the postion, you ask me to take it on then you got upset when Dell and Lee and others started to talk to me instead of you. As far as AMP goes again others came to me and asked that I help get it started If it had been my decision we would have tried AMFA again not AMP but I {put the big I aside} and did what was asked of me, you on the otherhand set on your A## and did nothing you could have started a drive and called it whatever you wanted, the kicker here is I would have supported you even though we have our differences because my goal is now and always has been to get the TWU off the property.

I have no idea why you are claiming that your movement to position of Organizing Chairman was related to you talking with Dell and/or Lee. Just another example of your "Big I" syndrome. The way I remember it we were beginning a resign drive once again and because some potential signers were hesitiant becuase I was not an A&P but instead a welder, we agreed to put a new face on the drive to overcome that obstacle. I was still right there as Co-Chair and hardly sit on my ass. I did sit on my ass during the AMP drive because it was not anywhere colse to the AMFA idea of ALL Mechanics in one union and the significant idea of experience recognition in all contacts across the industry. That is the only way to balance the power in this industry wide battle. I would have loved to helped you out as a friend but I am not going to assist getting rid of the TWU if the change is isolation instead of an industry wide unification. We had this discussion on more than one occassion and now because of your deisre to personally attack me you are making crap up in your own mind that is utterly false and you are spewing it in public. Not making the relationship better, but instead much worse. The fact is, it was the concessions and the "without further ratification" that finally created a signature on card windfall, and it was nothing you or I did that succeeded. The TWU and James C Little got the cards signed, just as was the case with nearly every cards signed to begin with. All we had to do was point out the mistakes and ignorance. Similar to pointing out the mistakes made leading up to he BK filing by AA.

Secondly it is your need to be right about the T/A that is driving this yes/no debate the facts are we held a vote let, me say that again WE HAD A VOTE because you cannot seem to wrap your brain around that and like it or not you lost by a very large margin yet you are on here daily telling {THE MAJORITY} that we where wrong and if that was not enough you attack me for having a big ego talk about hypocrisy, I spoke up only after reading the mess you where posting over and over again.

I can accept that this time, which is rare that TWU allowed democracy to work. But I will not cease to argue that the No voters were wrong based on the reasons they were giving at the time for voting no. It is only now that theie reasoning has changed to "it would not have changed anything". And so now I point out that those exact concessions and more are coming, and that having the money would have been better than not having the money. Hard to understand for some I guess, and most refuse to debate that side of the arguement, and just keep claiming we stopped concessions. Right after the No Vote, they were even claiming that the wide margin gave us leverage to get a better deal. That too has proven wrong and misleading. What is ironic to me is that the amount of money lost by the No Vote for me personally would have equaled close to a full refund of that which I personally spent on the AMFA Drive. We both have big egos without a doubt, but I am also capable of being humble and admitting error in judgement once the facts are laid out clearly in front of me. Some seem to be unable to express any humility regardless of time proving that a mistake or misjudgement took place.

Finally the difference is simple you wanted the money regardless of whether the contract was a concession as a whole while I and many others postion was and is we have voluntarily given up all that we were going to give, if they wanted more they would have to take it and most importantly we won the vote 2 to 1. yes I know you with your superior brain and logic made the right choice and the majority was wrong. God knows you are not going to let us forget it.

And now we have the concessions and more coming without the money in yours, mine, and every other member pockets because the trump card that always in the hand of the company has been played. Is it really that hard to grasp the idea of "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? The company had the trump card all along and Bob Owens, you and others kept claiming they were bluffing. Well they were not.

As for the majority being wrong. All we would have to do is have revote on the same T/A now, remembering that the trump card was always there and you others were calling that trump a bluff, and the voting outcome on the same T/A would be a complete reversal. In other words, the majority you speak of is telling me daily they wish they could revote on the exact same T/A and they would vote Yes. That bolsters my opinion that I was correct, and therefore continue to express that opinion here on a regualr basis. Maybe where you work employees are still pounding their chest about how we showed their asses, but most no voters where I work and humble enough to admit they were wrong and on a daily basis express a desire to have another shot at the T/A.

 

[enough already]

Finally the difference is simple you wanted the money regardless of whether the contract was a concession as a whole while I and many others postion was and is we have voluntarily given up all that we were going to give, if they wanted more they would have to take it and most importantly we won the vote 2 to 1. yes I know you with your superior brain and logic made the right choice and the majority was wrong. God knows you are not going to let us forget it.

Yes just to be clear, passage of the T/A most likely would not have prevented the BK, but we definitely would've had $16-20,000.00 more in our pockets.

 

[TWU informer]

Yes just to be clear, passage of the T/A most likely would not have prevented the BK, but we definitely would've had $16-20,000.00 more in our pockets.

Apparently some believe it is much better to shoot your own army in the feet, wounding and causing casualty amongst your allies while going up against a superior enemy armed with greater weapons.

Translation: of that Ignorant Thinking

Voting No while the company had the BK filing as a weapon, was a superior move. While claiming they would not use that weapon, we screwed ourselves out of money and much worse we will now lead the industry wide AMT profession another step in reverse instead of advancement.


Result of that Ignorant Thinking

Now we will not only have to pay for ingorant management, we also have to pay for the lawyers, advisors, and public relations firms hired to extract the same concessions and more, but instead concessions plus their fees will come from us. The superior weapon was used, and we are now going to watch much worse take place. Leadership leading workers into a unwinable battle without any signifcant weapons while the enemy is pointing a NUKE at you and expressing a will to use it is wrong even in chess and the board game RISK. Only here we have damaged real lives.

My opinon of that ignorant thinking.

I am all for a good fight and taking the management of this industry on and reversing the current trend. That is why I was onboard the idea of ALL mechanics in one Union that AMFA had within their agenda. The AMFA idea was clear to me and that idea had an understanding that ALL Mechanics in one union would potentially balance the power. Yet the NWA Mechanics and the No Voters at AA completely ignored that understanding and have proven that going into a fight without that equalization and balance of power leads to the same result. But now I am called selfish, stupid, pea brained, and and a TWU sympathizer for thinking that way and trying to point out why we are failing. Dell-Femine Knows and probably still preaches today what needs to happen for us to balance the power. But many of his pupils become too smart and arrogant for their own good and put the cart before the horse and the result of that is devasating to the followers of the leaders in too much of hurry to stop and take the first steps towards the goal.

Sum it Up:
If you fools want to fight, then properly prepare your troops for a victory. But please stop taking us into self defeating battles without that prepration. Industry wide unification instead reliance on politics is the direction needed. Continuation of compliance of the laws, without enough influence to change the law is slef defeating. Industry wide Labor Unification is the only current method availaable that will make entering a battle worthwhile. What we are watching now is suicide leadership that is living in a fantasy world not based on facts.