TWU Chapter 11 - AA 1113 Filing

[787nightmare]

Exactly.

 

[enough already]

Quote from Special Jetwire Thursday Jan 12 2012:

A Message From Chairman and CEO Tom Horton.
"...Just as we are carefully examining our fleet and network plans, we are looking at how we do our jobs, how we staff the airline and what compensation, benefit, and retirement packages will be going forward."

https://www.jetnet.aa.com/jetnet/jps/DisplayArticle.asp?UserID=34343&TBN=&id=104364&InContext=True&CID=204&LLN=1&ALT=Jetwire&LN=1&SB=1&SBT=Jetwire&SBC=10&MI=20

 

[fltguymk]

Gordon Bethunes interview pretty much summed up AA predicament. His answer bring someone back Crandal. Labor's not the problem,management flew this rocket straight into the ground. Afterall they run AA...they chose not to file in 03,they chose not to buy new airplanes,they chose to buy TWA.Yes there is some labor problem areas ,but overall management failed everyone.It was their Arrogant attitude that wrecked labor relations. It still continues into bankruptcy.

This would be a great one page add in the paper!! I could not agree more. And it baffles me why the board is so passive... What the heck are they getting out of a crappy run company???

 

[FWAAA]

It is amazing how AMR has 20+ Vice Presidents and all of their underlings and yet must spend Millions for someone to advise them on Fleet Worth, Analysis, Labor Agreements, Financial Advisement ect.

The list of hired help reqeusted in Chapter 11 filings, keeps on growing in numbers and dollars.

Given this management style, I believe every reader on this board could be CEO/PRESIDENT/VC PRESIDENT at AMR. All you have to do is hire someone else preform your job specific area of interest functions.

The list won't look significantly different from the list of advisors hired by UA or DL or NW during their bankruptcies. UA spent several hundred million dollars on lawyers, consultants, advisors, investment bankers, etc. during its three years in Ch 11.

Certainly wouldn't want to consult with advisors who have been thru other airline bankruptcies. Much better if AA management, who have never been thru Ch 11, tried to go it alone. 😀

I can certainly appreciate why you're concerned: these advisors' focus will be on making sure that everyone gets as little as possible, be they lenders, airplane lessors, labor groups, etc. Better for each of those groups if management was ignorant.

When you're faced with a situation you've never faced before, have you ever asked advice of someone who's been there before, or do you jump right in?

 

[texasreb]

This would be a great one page add in the paper!! I could not agree more. And it baffles me why the board is so passive... What the heck are they getting out of a crappy run company???

Because being on a board is like a good old boys club. Most board members at corporations are in some capacity leaders at other failing companies. They are from the same mold.

 

[strikeforce]

The list won't look significantly different from the list of advisors hired by UA or DL or NW during their bankruptcies. UA spent several hundred million dollars on lawyers, consultants, advisors, investment bankers, etc. during its three years in Ch 11.

Certainly wouldn't want to consult with advisors who have been thru other airline bankruptcies. Much better if AA management, who have never been thru Ch 11, tried to go it alone. 😀

I can certainly appreciate why you're concerned: these advisors' focus will be on making sure that everyone gets as little as possible, be they lenders, airplane lessors, labor groups, etc. Better for each of those groups if management was ignorant.

When you're faced with a situation you've never faced before, have you ever asked advice of someone who's been there before, or do you jump right in?

Show me a bankrupt company that turned around and became a powerhouse company without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts???????? If that's all it takes....I could give Horton that advice and save millions.

 

[FWAAA]

Show me a bankrupt company that turned around and became a powerhouse company without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts???????? If that's all it takes....I could give Horton that advice and save millions.

Continental under Gordon Bethune? After its second bankruptcy, Bethune was hired, and I'd say that CO turned around and became a powerhouse company between 1994 and its eventual merger with UA, and those 16 years were marked by zero mergers, acquisitions and buyouts at CO.

DL, NW and UA didn't simply merge after bankruptcy to become strong - they slashed and burned their way thru Ch 11 first. That's the part the outside consultants and advisors help with.

 

[eolesen]

Show me a bankrupt company that turned around and became a powerhouse company without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts???????? If that's all it takes....I could give Horton that advice and save millions.

I'll show you four.

GM, Chrysler, and Pacific Gas & Electric, all in the last decade.

Caterpillar, during the 1980's. They were dangerously close to bankruptcy, restructured, and are back to being a powerhouse.

 

[TWU informer]

The list won't look significantly different from the list of advisors hired by UA or DL or NW during their bankruptcies. UA spent several hundred million dollars on lawyers, consultants, advisors, investment bankers, etc. during its three years in Ch 11.

Certainly wouldn't want to consult with advisors who have been thru other airline bankruptcies. Much better if AA management, who have never been thru Ch 11, tried to go it alone. 😀

I can certainly appreciate why you're concerned: these advisors' focus will be on making sure that everyone gets as little as possible, be they lenders, airplane lessors, labor groups, etc. Better for each of those groups if management was ignorant.

When you're faced with a situation you've never faced before, have you ever asked advice of someone who's been there before, or do you jump right in?

So I guess every situation is one never faced before at AA

Consulting Firms prior to BK

Consulting Firms During BK Filing

Consulting Firms After BK Filing

Every Situation must be one never faced.

My point is, what the hell is every department and department head doing if they have to hire someone else to advise them on how to do their job?

Following the foot steps of overy other airline as justification for ignorance is what has got us in this problem to begin with and can hardly be called leadership.

 

[eolesen]

My point is, what the hell is every department and department head doing if they have to hire someone else to advise them on how to do their job?

They're getting unbiased validation and advice that what they're proposing to do is actually sound, Dave.

When you're looking at a whole herd of sacred cows, you probably don't want a vegetarian deciding which one needs to head to slaughter.

If you want a decision made in the best interest of the company, it can't be made by someone with an emotional or financial attachment to the consequences.

It's the same reason I've advocated for professional negotiators vs. laymen. It's sometimes hard to see the forest thru all the trees.

 

[TWU informer]

They're getting unbiased validation and advice that what they're proposing to do is actually sound, Dave.

When you're looking at a whole herd of sacred cows, you probably don't want a vegetarian deciding which one needs to head to slaughter.

If you want a decision made in the best interest of the company, it can't be made by someone with an emotional or financial attachment to the consequences.

It's the same reason I've advocated for professional negotiators vs. laymen. It's sometimes hard to see the forest thru all the trees.

That's a great idea. Why not hire unbiased validation on all issues and dispense with the overpaid overhead and their underlings?
In other words cut out the middle man or woman as it might be. It is not the conuslting that bothers me, it's the paying for one function twice.

 

[FWAAA]

I posted here 10 years ago about exactly who would bear those expenses in bankruptcy: labor. That's what happened at US, UA, DL and NW.

Of course, there are numerous people who insisted then and continue to insist now that AA employees' concessions were more severe than the cuts suffered at the bankrupt companies. Now that AA is in bankruptcy, it will spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the same advisors everyone else hired - and ultimately, the funds to pay them will be extracted from AA's labor groups.

 

[787nightmare]

So I guess every situation is one never faced before at AA

Consulting Firms prior to BK

Consulting Firms During BK Filing

Consulting Firms After BK Filing

Every Situation must be one never faced.

My point is, what the hell is every department and department head doing if they have to hire someone else to advise them on how to do their job?

Following the foot steps of overy other airline as justification for ignorance is what has got us in this problem to begin with and can hardly be called leadership.

D, there just a bit "insecure" in there "indecision"...ya understand. 🙂

 

[strikeforce]

I'll show you four.

GM, Chrysler, and Pacific Gas & Electric, all in the last decade.

Caterpillar, during the 1980's. They were dangerously close to bankruptcy, restructured, and are back to being a powerhouse.

Wrong! GM & Chrysler were helped by the u.s. taxpayers......try again E. The other two, I'll do my due diligence and get back to you.

 

[strikeforce]

I'll show you four.

GM, Chrysler, and Pacific Gas & Electric, all in the last decade.

Caterpillar, during the 1980's. They were dangerously close to bankruptcy, restructured, and are back to being a powerhouse.

PG&E got bailed out by the state of California after suffering billions in loses as a result of droughts in 2001 and the electric commission setting the rates that PGE could sell electricity to consumers. Unfortunately, they bought electricity on the open market higher than they could sell it and they were losing billions. In 2006 they filed BK and California tried to help but were also tied to the lower rates and the state lost billions too. When PGE emerged from BK, consumers were ordered to pay higher rates than they would have on the open market and the consumers ultimately bailed out PGE.

This is right out of Wikipedia. read it.

So E, PGE did not become a powerhouse on their own.....the states tried to help and the consumers i.e. taxpayers paid through the nose to help PGE emerge from BK.