TWU Chapter 11 - AA 1113 Filing

[FWAAA]

Sorry, strikeforce, but the absence of government/taxpayer assistance wasn't listed as one of your initial conditions; you mentioned mergers, acquisitions or buyouts. That's what some of us call "mobile goalposts."

Your implication, of course, is that AA need not hire any of these experts to thrive after bankruptcy - all AA has to do, in your view, is become involved in a merger, acquisition or buyout. The facts, of course, are that all companies in Ch 11 hire all sorts of expensive experts for advice during bankruptcy.

I listed one airline that meets your initial conditions: Continental.

 

[strikeforce]

I'll show you four.

GM, Chrysler, and Pacific Gas & Electric, all in the last decade.

Caterpillar, during the 1980's. They were dangerously close to bankruptcy, restructured, and are back to being a powerhouse.

Caterpillar is the only one of your four that restructured outside of BK.

AA also tried to restructure outside of BK in 2003 and failed miserably. Management had there chance to change work rules, increase productivity, and they didn't. So, what does that tell you about the management at AA??? At CAT management took the hard steps to turn the company around. At AA, management bloated the managment ranks, spent foolishly, no accountability and did it for nine years and still ended up filing for BK.

 

[strikeforce]

Sorry, strikeforce, but the absence of government/taxpayer assistance wasn't listed as one of your initial conditions; you mentioned mergers, acquisitions or buyouts. That's what some of us call "mobile goalposts."

Your implication, of course, is that AA need not hire any of these experts to thrive after bankruptcy - all AA has to do, in your view, is become involved in a merger, acquisition or buyout. The facts, of course, are that all companies in Ch 11 hire all sorts of expensive experts for advice during bankruptcy.

I listed one airline that meets your initial conditions: Continental.

I didn't mention GM or Chrysler. I said name a company that thrived and became a powerhouse company after emerging from BK without assistance......merger, AQ & buyouts....which was basically what the U.S. Gov't did. CAT didn't go BK.

I'll do some research on CO.

 

[TWU informer]

Been wondering where the hell Bob Owens has been lately.

Heard today he has been busy with Petersen, JR, and Rojas having secret meetings to attempt Red Circle of the Line Stations.

Now that's some real Unionism at work there.
How dare the man lead everyone into this Chapter 11 filing with his No Vote videos and then try to circumvent union seniority.


Bob, if this is true, you got some explaining to do!

 

[strikeforce]

Sorry, strikeforce, but the absence of government/taxpayer assistance wasn't listed as one of your initial conditions; you mentioned mergers, acquisitions or buyouts. That's what some of us call "mobile goalposts."

Your implication, of course, is that AA need not hire any of these experts to thrive after bankruptcy - all AA has to do, in your view, is become involved in a merger, acquisition or buyout. The facts, of course, are that all companies in Ch 11 hire all sorts of expensive experts for advice during bankruptcy.

I listed one airline that meets your initial conditions: Continental.

CO got a $450M investment by Air Canada & Texas Air during the first BK and during the second CO had help from NWA. Gordon Bethune became CEO and he implemented the GO-Forward plan which centered on increasing employee morale and customer satisfaction. They also had a "Golden Share" program with NWA. NW had control of all decision making on mergers, AQ and major decisions concerning CO. So, CO did have help from other carriers.

Employee morale is one thing AA will NEVER repair, especially if they impose more severe cuts. It's bad enough today, I can't wait to see it a year from now!!

 

[strikeforce]

Been wondering where the hell Bob Owens has been lately.

Heard today he has been busy with Petersen, JR, and Rojas having secret meetings to attempt Red Circle of the Line Stations.

Now that's some real Unionism at work there.
How dare the man lead everyone into this Chapter 11 filing with his No Vote videos and then try to circumvent union seniority.


Bob, if this is true, you got some explaining to do!

It's nothing new to red circle shops.....in 1992 many shops in TUL were red circled. The avionics shop at ORD required AMT's to pass the A30 test to bump in. I'm sure the company doesn't want all the chaos multiple bumps would cause. I'm just saying!

 

[TWU informer]

It's nothing new to red circle shops.....in 1992 many shops in TUL were red circled. The avionics shop at ORD required AMT's to pass the A30 test to bump in. I'm sure the company doesn't want all the chaos multiple bumps would cause. I'm just saying!

Are you in favor of red circling line stations?

 

[Buck]

Continental under Gordon Bethune? After its second bankruptcy, Bethune was hired, and I'd say that CO turned around and became a powerhouse company between 1994 and its eventual merger with UA, and those 16 years were marked by zero mergers, acquisitions and buyouts at CO.

DL, NW and UA didn't simply merge after bankruptcy to become strong - they slashed and burned their way thru Ch 11 first. That's the part the outside consultants and advisors help with.

There are outsiders advising the Board, the unions are on the Creditors Committee.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So E, PGE did not become a powerhouse on their own.....

That wasn't what you asked. "Show me a bankrupt company that turned around and became a powerhouse company without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts????????" is what you asked and an answer was provided. Changing the question doesn't make the answer to the original question wrong.

Every corporation that doesn't liquidate has help turning around in bankruptcy - either DIP or exit financing for starters. Concessions by workers, vendors, debt holders, etc. Dumping unneeded facilities and equipment. Breaking contracts. But you asked specifically about turning around without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts.

Jim

 

[strikeforce]

That wasn't what you asked. "Show me a bankrupt company that turned around and became a powerhouse company without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts????????" is what you asked and an answer was provided. Changing the question doesn't make the answer to the original question wrong.

Every corporation that doesn't liquidate has help turning around in bankruptcy - either DIP or exit financing for starters. Concessions by workers, vendors, debt holders, etc. Dumping unneeded facilities and equipment. Breaking contracts. But you asked specifically about turning around without mergers, acquisitions or buyouts.

Jim

That's right and I'm still waiting on a valid answer. The only answer close was CAT and they restructured outside of BK. Will AA restructure debts....no doubt, but can they restructure without any financial assistance from outside parties remains to be seen. The bottom line here is AA had the chance to restructure outside of BK in 2003 and they blew it. And now with 5B in the bank.....it seems to me that Horton probably will try and restructure without DIP, mergers or AQ. Will it work, maybe, if they're really serious about making the place more competitive. There's one thing for sure.....carnage, both union and management.

 

[strikeforce]

Are you in favor of red circling line stations?

NO!!!

The only thing left is seniority. Deals were made in the past that circumvented seniority....remember 2003 when TUL recieved their bump sheets a week before AFW, and most went to DFW, which at the time was a junior station, and then a week later AFW got their bump sheets and had to bump other stations because DFW wasn't low anymore. If you like to make deals, which I don't, then anything goes and throw out the CBA. But, deals seem to rule over the CBA, right???

 

[eolesen]

That's right and I'm still waiting on a valid answer. The only answer close was CAT and they restructured outside of BK. Will AA restructure debts....no doubt, but can they restructure without any financial assistance from outside parties remains to be seen. The bottom line here is AA had the chance to restructure outside of BK in 2003 and they blew it. And now with 5B in the bank.....it seems to me that Horton probably will try and restructure without DIP, mergers or AQ. Will it work, maybe, if they're really serious about making the place more competitive. There's one thing for sure.....carnage, both union and management.

Carmine, you crack me up. You got an answer to what you asked. And now you want to add qualifiers because you didn't like the fact that there have been companies who did manage their way thru bankruptcy without a merger or buyout from another company?

Hawaiian Airlines. Quite successful after their restructuring a few years ago. New equity came in, but no merger, no buyout.

Same thing with Mesa, although it's probably a little too early to see how successful their restructuring has been.

Continental had investment from other airlines, yes. But it wasn't a buyout, it wasn't a merger. In fact, the golden share had but one purpose -- it gave NW right of refusal over merger decisions. And that's the only power it gave them over what CO did. No seat on the board, no preferential treatment, no inability to prevent CO from undercutting their pricing... just the power to make sure their initial investment wouldn't be used against them without an opportunity to extract compensation.

Donald Trump is another example of a powerhouse where bankruptcy was just a bump in the road. He's been quick to dump subsidiaries into bankruptcy as needed, but always comes out like a crisp new $100,000,000 bill.

 

[amt66]

NO!!!

The only thing left is seniority. Deals were made in the past that circumvented seniority....remember 2003 when TUL recieved their bump sheets a week before AFW, and most went to DFW, which at the time was a junior station, and then a week later AFW got their bump sheets and had to bump other stations because DFW wasn't low anymore. If you like to make deals, which I don't, then anything goes and throw out the CBA. But, deals seem to rule over the CBA, right???

Afw basically did the same thing back in 93 .... I doubt there will be any red circling ... if delta gets its way they don't want the whole company only the Heathrow slots and the Latin America routes. There will be no bumping cusbthere won't be anywhere to bump to.

 

[strikeforce]

Carmine, you crack me up. You got an answer to what you asked. And now you want to add qualifiers because you didn't like the fact that there have been companies who did manage their way thru bankruptcy without a merger or buyout from another company?

Hawaiian Airlines. Quite successful after their restructuring a few years ago. New equity came in, but no merger, no buyout.

Same thing with Mesa, although it's probably a little too early to see how successful their restructuring has been.

Continental had investment from other airlines, yes. But it wasn't a buyout, it wasn't a merger. In fact, the golden share had but one purpose -- it gave NW right of refusal over merger decisions. And that's the only power it gave them over what CO did. No seat on the board, no preferential treatment, no inability to prevent CO from undercutting their pricing... just the power to make sure their initial investment wouldn't be used against them without an opportunity to extract compensation.

Donald Trump is another example of a powerhouse where bankruptcy was just a bump in the road. He's been quick to dump subsidiaries into bankruptcy as needed, but always comes out like a crisp new $100,000,000 bill.

I think we beat this enough. I guess we'll just wait & see what happens moving forward.

 

[CactUS4Ever]

I think it's best to break up AA and make the remaining airlines stronger,healthier and give the creditors some value. It would also give the employees closure.