TWU or IAM in a Merger

[737823]

And I thought you were smart enough to realize the company doesn't give you anything, when you go into negotiations the company negotiators consider the pension cost, so it's not as if its the company's money, the membership "pays" for it in other ways. Just because the company puts the money in the envelope doesn't mean it's "their money". Have you read Kev's posts about the pensions? He does not support them, he has said several times labor "gives away the store" to save the pension when they should be securing better 401K matches from the company.

And if the IAM pension was so great, why did your union abandon your "brothers and sisters" at Lockheed Martin on an extended strike only for the company to eliminate the pension for new hires when your strike proved unsuccessful? The IAM is worse than IATSE, they are full of corporate studio apologists, not unionists and the IAM is no different.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Wrong again, Kev supports at three point approach on retirement, a DBP, a 401k and SS.

Try again.

So what makes you an expert on labor unions, contracts and labor relations?

Your just someone who hates unions and will resort to anything to discredit them, even when you are shown to be wrong, which you are most of the time.

 

[737823]

Organized labor is in the fetal position and has been for awhile, your weak union gave into the company and you are ashamed to admit it. You sold out the membership, they would have been better served had you given into the company from the get go, but no you want to be a fighter and then bail. Spin it anyway you want but the company got what they wanted. A nine week strike isn't good for anyone but I assure you the workers felt the pinch more than the company, certainly on an individual level.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/26/business/lockheed-contract-wins-approval-of-union-bargainers.html

Josh

 

[700UW]

Keep avoiding the facts and truth, and keep bringing things into this thread that do not pertain.

Keep trying, its easy proving you wrong all the time.

You are wrong about what you posted about Kevin and you cant even acknowledge it.

And your wrong about what happened at US Airways, why must you constantly lie about it?

 

[firedougparker]

chellow is absolutely right. And it will be the TWU, you can count on that.

The only way to avoid that fate is to work against the merger happening. Otherwise it's TWU, APFA and APA for us.

 

[robbedagain]

fireddougparker... do you think the iam will represent the mechanics n related and the twu the fleet service... thats the feeling i get from your post there
from what ive heard from some of the aa folks back in the summer before they were let go in nov they despised the twu and they said it was worse than the iam they were offered 17000 buyout before taxes and the most senior were offered 60k before taxes
i think may be the iam may prevail to rep the fleet service just my opin

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

I dunno' about that,quite a few copies of your current contract floating around at LGA and there is a constant stream of "Really?" and "Look at this crap!" from stewards,section chairmen and executive board members and the floor itself as people read it.

Asstacularly bad attendance control policy,equally craptacular CS policy,insane OT formula...

Gonna' be a tough sell.

 

[pjirish317]

I dunno' about that,quite a few copies of your current contract floating around at LGA and there is a constant stream of "Really?" and "Look at this crap!" from stewards,section chairmen and executive board members and the floor itself as people read it.

Asstacularly bad attendance control policy,equally craptacular CS policy,insane OT formula...

Gonna' be a tough sell.

JFK,

I agree our current CBA would be a tough sell, but we are currently in negotiations to address this. And, you would not be "automaticlly" placed under our CBA. There would have to be transition talks to try to produce a joint CBA, meanwhile both groups live under their current CBA until the transition agreement happens. The question would be, Who do we want negotiating the transition agreement, and enforcing both CBA's? I would rather the IAM over the TWU anyday, I don't trust the TWU. But that is just my opinion. It would be each persons decision as to who they think can better represent them. And for me it is definately not the TWU, it would be the IAM.


P.S.
I hope everybody has a safe and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[totobird]

Under the current IAM contract if you are a part time employee and you are upgraded to full time in the fleet service group your seniority for layoffs, bidding vacation lines and bidding work schedules is cut in half. So if you are say part time for 2 years and upgraded to full time you automatically loose one year of seniority. You keep your hire date for payscale, retirement, vacation accrual and non rev boarding.
You can find this on page 33, article 7, paragraph A. This goes back to the Teamster days of the 1970's and needs to be changed.
I believe under the TWU contract your hire date is not affected if you are upgraded to full time status. You keep all your time as long as you stay in the fleet service classification.
I hope the IAM negotiating commitee is looking very closely at this issue. I am sure this will be a major point when deciding between unions if there is a run off election.

 

[Kev3188]

Thanks Tim. What 700UW and other proponents of the IAM pension don't understand is that in negotiations the company considers this cost and doesn't consider the cost in isolation. He keeps saying that workers covered under a 401K "use their own money not the company's" and while true, this is offset by lower base rates, higher medical, less SCOPE protection, etc. Kev has been a proponent for doing away with the pension for this reason and even went as far to say that labor "gives away the store to save the pension", I agree it is in the interest of everyone to manage their own retirement in the plan that is best suited for their financial needs and goals. Every individual is different and has different needs and a one size fits all approach is not best.

Just to be clear, I'm not against doing away with pension monies already accrued/vested. What I AM in favor of, is both worker choice, and labor reclaiming a lot of the leverage lost. I'm not against a pension per se, but you're correct that I am on record as saying that all to often we give away too much in return for "saving the pension." IMO, shifting to a DC can remove a LOT of any company's ability to exploit that- all the more so in aviation where we have the double whammy of being "attached" to our company seniority.

What ever we accrued is what were going to get, the only "tougha lucka" is that we didnt win the vote.

The last vote, anyway.

Although I am uncomfortable with it, some aren't...

I recognize that as well- especially given the wildly different demographics within each carrier. I do think that is changing, though, and while if you asked 3 people why, you might get 4 different opinions, in the end, it all comes down to worker empowerment.

Wrong again, Kev supports at three point approach on retirement, a DBP, a 401k and SS.

Indeed. See above.

I'd also like to point out that what 700UW has posted about the IAMNPF funding is accurate.

Organized labor is in the fetal position and has been for awhile, your weak union gave into the company and you are ashamed to admit it.

I'd say labor may be down, but we're certainly not out. And even if we've been knocked to the ground, I certainly see lots of signs nationwide that we're currently dusting ourselves off. As for what happened at US, I think that's ultimately up to the represented employees to decide. I will say, I'd much rather stand with someone who at least swung for the fences than someone that sat on the sidelines bitching, but never lifting a finger to try to effect change.

It would be each persons decision as to who they think can better represent them. And for me it is definately not the TWU, it would be the IAM.

The TWU ATD's current constitutional set up would make choosing them a deal breaker, IMO.

 

[737823]

Just to be clear, I'm not against doing away with pension monies already accrued/vested. What I AM in favor of, is both worker choice, and labor reclaiming a lot of the leverage lost. I'm not against a pension per se, but you're correct that I am on record as saying that all to often we give away too much in return for "saving the pension." IMO, shifting to a DC can remove a LOT of any company's ability to exploit that- all the more so in aviation where we have the double whammy of being "attached" to our company seniority.

I agree completely about giving people choices since no single plan is best for all, everyone has different financial needs and goals. As for transitioning towards DC that has been the trend for the past several decades now and I think peoples perceptions and expectations even among heavily unionized private sector industries (ie airlines) and public sector are slowly changing. As time goes on and new leadership takes charge this will change.

But I also think you recognize and appreciate that pensions and retiree medical benefits are the pinnacle of the middle class lifestyle some credit the labor movement for providing and while paring it back is inevitable it's still going to be a major disappointment for many workers and labor leaders. I'm sure you also understand the risks and challenges of transitioning new hires to a DC while maintaining pensions for some employees. As you have said labor has given up a lot to preserve these benefits and new workers are less likely to forgo pay increases, better work rules, superior medical and better DC matches to preserve the pension benefits for more senior workers.

I'd say labor may be down, but we're certainly not out. And even if we've been knocked to the ground, I certainly see lots of signs nationwide that we're currently dusting ourselves off. As for what happened at US, I think that's ultimately up to the represented employees to decide. I will say, I'd much rather stand with someone who at least swung for the fences than someone that sat on the sidelines bitching, but never lifting a finger to try to effect change.

Well again, you have to look at what has happened in the past year at Caterpillar, Hostess, and Lockheed Martin just as a few examples. In regards to pensions the membership very much felt that maintaining the pension for new hires was critical (see above) but after an unsuccessful strike the negotiating committee bailed. Same could be said of Caterpillar in London, ON after their outrageous demands the company said enough of this BS and is bringing the work stateside to Georgia (RTW) after the lockout.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Well again, you have to look at what has happened in the past year at Caterpillar, Hostess, and Lockheed Martin just as a few examples...

...Or you could go the other way, and look at what happened in the past year with positive stories like Chicago teachers, the LAX ports, and so on. The rank and file have been ready to reclaim their leverage for awhile, and I think we're at a real tipping point in this country. Now it's just an issue of union leaders either catching up, or getting the heck outta the way...

 

[737823]

...Or you could go the other way, and look at what happened in the past year with positive stories like Chicago teachers, the LAX ports, and so on. The rank and file have been ready to reclaim their leverage for awhile, and I think we're at a real tipping point in this country. Now it's just an issue of union leaders either catching up, or getting the heck outta the way...

Sure you could. At any given time there are some bright areas and other troubling areas. Again you can spin any way you want but if you look at the collective state of organized labor today it's facing unprecedented headwinds in the collective bargaining process and through other reforms (ie Michigan RTW).

Did you read my above reply regarding the pension? Do you not feel eliminating pensions for new hires while retaining them for more senior workers "pits workers against each other"? Seems pretty divisional to me.

Josh

 

[700UW]

That hasnt happened at US and its not relevant.

 

[737823]

That hasnt happened at US and its not relevant.

IAM gave into the company and is allowing it to happen at Lockheed Martin after an unsuccessful prolonged strike.

Josh