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U.S. Pilot Labor Thread 9/28 - 10/05

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The MDA issue is actually very simple. If an MDA pilot was mainline, could that pilot bid available vacancies on other US Airways equipment (that is an example of the alleged injustice)? Or conversely, could a mainline pilot choose to bid the E170 at MDA to increase bidding power (that is an example of the alleged injustice)? Of course the answer is no and we all know that one had to be furloughed from mainline to bid the E170 at the MDA division. (another alleged injustice),


Lets put this in terms you can understand..

"The AWA early furloughs issue is really quite simple."

"Did the "out of seniority" early furloughs at so-called AWA get to displace USAir pilots junior to them? Did USAir pilots get to bid those furlough positions at AWA so as to increase their peace and quite factor? Of course the answer is no and we all know that one had to be at "AWA" to get an early furlough position at AWA division, but don't let the facts stand in the way of this massive unemployment and peace and quiet grab."
 
I was more interested in this. Funny. You must have accidentally glossed over this one...

Paying the Bill

Lost amid the west chatter about paying USAPA dues in full, in part or not at all, is one glaring issue that has not received any attention from east or west pilots. That issue is the liquidity of USAPA. The rhetoric coming out of Charlotte and the east domicile representative's member updates (west pilots have no established councils due to inaction of the Board of Pilot Representatives) has taken on an ominous tone specifically in regards to collecting delinquent dues accounts.

Most west pilots are not paying dues to USAPA and many east pilots are slow in paying. USAPA officials still have not come up with an accurate accounting of monies owed. Instead of getting the records straight the leaders of the union have instigated a pay up or be fired campaign. While that effort has been considerably slowed by the actions of management one has to wonder why the full out assault on members and potential members.

According to sources both within and outside of the union USAPA is reportedly facing a serious financial crunch. Because some pilots are refusing to pay dues and other pilots are withholding dues until they get an accurate accounting, USAPA is running seriously low on funds to operate the union. In order to establish the union and get it up and running the organizers reportedly established a bank credit from which to draw. With little credit still available and not enough dues payments being collected USAPA may be on the verge of bankruptcy.

Facing numerous challenges both internally and externally due to the state of the industry and economy, USAPA's structural integrity is under tremendous strain. Taking advantage of that weakness the management of US Airways is beginning to take a decidedly firmer stance with a weakened union that suffers a decreasing level of confidence and support from its membership.

Our advice to USAPA is simple. Instead of coercing the membership to be "good union pilots" which suggests an unquestioning supplication to the leadership, we suggest that the leadership be "responsible union pilots" and chart an immediate change of course from the present track which will surely lead to failure.
 
Thank you moderators....I concede my language got "testy"...

I appreciate your candor in allowing the sentiment of my posts to continue...

I'll try harder to refrain from questonable language as it relates to my west "bretheren" in the future.

Yes, how soon you forgot. It seems like just yesterday that you created your new "handle", machtuck, a seemingly reasonable eastie. What was your old "handle"; something with an old boat?

US Pilot Labor Thread
machtuck


QUOTE (Tiger 1050 @ Aug 19 2008, 04:38 PM)
I think most feel the way you do... Your attempt to facilitate fruitful discussion is admirable... Too bad we don't see more of it.

well....why don't we try...

I promise, whenever (if ever) I get too pissed..I'll just sign off...no attacks.
 
Yes, how soon you forgot. It seems like just yesterday that you created your new "handle", machtuck, a seemingly reasonable eastie. What was your old "handle"; something with an old boat?




Didn't forget...just completely over the whole thing...the games, "catch me if you can" with dues...all of it.
I thought maybe we could get somewhere, now I see we can't.
 
Merger Committee Update
October 3, 2008

As many of you know by now, on Tuesday of this past week, the Merger Committee presented Management with the US Airways Date of Hire Pilot system seniority list (available in the Library Section of the USAPA web site), along with a comprehensive set of Conditions and Restrictions. USAPA is committed to Date of Hire principles, derived from fundamental union principles which have been embraced by all of the other labor groups on this property as well as being embraced recently by the Pilots of United Airlines’ via resolution. Fundamental union principals also dictate a Date of Hire airline that recognizes the service of all of our Pilots in a fair and equitable fashion...


There has been no reordering of previous lists.


In Solidarity, your USAPA Merger Committee



Randy Mowrey

Mike Turpen

Bob Davison


Well, there you have it.

USAPA is a DOH union, as long as you were hired by Piedmont prior to 1985.

All others need not apply.
 
Until we are interested in joining against the abuses of the company.. we have nothing in common. Join whenever/if you come around.

That's just it Phoenix! USAPA cannot expect to be the union we all hope for when they intentionally alienate 40%+ of their constituents. I have no love for ALPA. But I sure as heck will refuse USAPA as long as they stay this course the are currently on. I saw the "DOH" list. USAPA should be ashamed. With the idiotic lawsuits and just the "start-up" costs we all know USAPA is burning through the cash. They have a limited time. As the article says USAPA's only choice is to change course... If they wish to survive.
 
As the article says USAPA's only choice is to change course... If they wish to survive.

His kind hopes for the preservatin of USAPA are greatly appreciated. Everyone in USAPA is greatly indebted to him for his support and couldn't get by without him.
 
Interesting!



Hi, I'm from USAPA and I'm here to help you!

Receiving a Section 19 letter in the mail is certainly a stressful event. Under ALPA, pilots had access to comprehensive legal representation with strict confidentiality. One always knew that they wouldn’t have to face the company alone and be subject to unilateral discipline without due process.

But since the change in bargaining agents, many pilots, both East and West, have been reluctant to enlist the assistance of USAPA when faced with a Section 19. Their fears aren’t unfounded.

-With lawsuits flying against their own pilots, how can any pilot trust that the hearing and related information would remain confidential?
-Seham, Seham, Meltz & Peterson, PC does not have a reliable track record representing pilots. In fact, many of the firm’s cases have been on behalf of airline management.
-How can East ALPA supporters and West pilots expect fair and impartial representation?
-USAPA is seeking the termination of both East and West pilots through expedited and unprecedented enforcement of Section 29 of both CBA's.

The list is endless, but in a weird twist of irony, many pilots are finding better Section 19 outcomes without using USAPA.

But as usual, telling USAPA no is not an easy task. We have numerous reports of pilots arriving at their hearings only to be met, unannounced, with a pilot representative of the Association. In violation of Federal Labor Law and both collective bargaining agreements, they are trying to force themselves into the hearings.

Just so there is no misunderstanding that you are under no obligation to allow a USAPA representative access to your hearing, we’ve reprinted the applicable sections from both CBA’s below:

From the East:

Section 19.B.2
Prior to such investigation and hearing, such pilot shall be notified in writing by the Company of the precise charge or charges against him. He may, however, be held out of service by the Company pending such investigation and hearing. He shall be given the necessary time not exceeding twelve (12) days in which to prepare his defense and secure the presence of witnesses and shall have the right to be represented by an employee of the Company of his choice or by his duly accredited representative(s).

From the West:

Section 18.A
Except as otherwise provided in Section 21, a Pilot shall have the right to be
represented at any Company hearing or investigation by an Association
representative (including Association attorneys) or another Pilot on the America
West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List with the approval of the Association,
provided the Company has been notified in writing. It is the intention of the
parties that hearings and investigations are to be conducted informally whenever
possible.

----Note: USAPA has denied all requests for America West pilots to be represented by anyone but the Association.

In summary, you are not required to use USAPA in a Section 19 hearing, whether you are East or West.
 
Be afraid. Be very afraid. Everyone is really out to get you. Especially the ones who say they are there to help. But we aren't lying when we say we will help... of course it would be helpful if you give us a little money so we can help you.. Be afraid. Be very afraid.


"Uh.. no we don't have anything to do with ALPA. Why do you ask?"
 
I was more interested in this. Funny. You must have accidentally glossed over this one...

Paying the Bill

Lost amid the west chatter about paying USAPA dues in full, in part or not at all, is one glaring issue that has not received any attention from east or west pilots. That issue is the liquidity of USAPA. The rhetoric coming out of Charlotte and the east domicile representative's member updates (west pilots have no established councils due to inaction of the Board of Pilot Representatives) has taken on an ominous tone specifically in regards to collecting delinquent dues accounts.

Most west pilots are not paying dues to USAPA and many east pilots are slow in paying. USAPA officials still have not come up with an accurate accounting of monies owed. Instead of getting the records straight the leaders of the union have instigated a pay up or be fired campaign. While that effort has been considerably slowed by the actions of management one has to wonder why the full out assault on members and potential members.

According to sources both within and outside of the union USAPA is reportedly facing a serious financial crunch. Because some pilots are refusing to pay dues and other pilots are withholding dues until they get an accurate accounting, USAPA is running seriously low on funds to operate the union. In order to establish the union and get it up and running the organizers reportedly established a bank credit from which to draw. With little credit still available and not enough dues payments being collected USAPA may be on the verge of bankruptcy.

Facing numerous challenges both internally and externally due to the state of the industry and economy, USAPA's structural integrity is under tremendous strain. Taking advantage of that weakness the management of US Airways is beginning to take a decidedly firmer stance with a weakened union that suffers a decreasing level of confidence and support from its membership.

Our advice to USAPA is simple. Instead of coercing the membership to be "good union pilots" which suggests an unquestioning supplication to the leadership, we suggest that the leadership be "responsible union pilots" and chart an immediate change of course from the present track which will surely lead to failure.

What is the source of this quote? It seems that the purpose is to just spread misinformation, which seems to be the latest strategy in attempting to undermine the union.
 
This is just silly. It plainly says in your west quoted paragraph that the association (thats USAPA) has to give permission to use some "other rep" at your "prayer meeting".

The tendency for you guys to "legitimize" AOL or AWAPPA is not working for anybody..even the company. While you may think your "club" has some legal and official standing as it relates to this airline and it's pilot labor group, you are wrong. It's really that simple. AOL may as well be a knitting club.

I recall Parker summarily shooting down your boys request to have "some of our guys out west review the west block hours"...

Some rogue unit out west seeking to step into the legal limelight as USAirways...

The article you quote is pointless, you can have someone from the "union" with you, or, a friend...at the union's discretion.
simple.
 
Interesting!



Just so there is no misunderstanding that you are under no obligation to allow a USAPA representative access to your hearing, we’ve reprinted the applicable sections from both CBA’s below:

From the East:

Section 19.B.2
Prior to such investigation and hearing, such pilot shall be notified in writing by the Company of the precise charge or charges against him. He may, however, be held out of service by the Company pending such investigation and hearing. He shall be given the necessary time not exceeding twelve (12) days in which to prepare his defense and secure the presence of witnesses and shall have the right to be represented by an employee of the Company of his choice or by his duly accredited representative(s).

From the West:

Section 18.A
Except as otherwise provided in Section 21, a Pilot shall have the right to be
represented at any Company hearing or investigation by an Association
representative (including Association attorneys) or another Pilot on the America
West Airlines Pilots’ System Seniority List with the approval of the Association,
provided the Company has been notified in writing. It is the intention of the
parties that hearings and investigations are to be conducted informally whenever
possible.

----Note: USAPA has denied all requests for America West pilots to be represented by anyone but the Association.

In summary, you are not required to use USAPA in a Section 19 hearing, whether you are East or West.


Correct...you may request the USAPA rep to not join in your "meeting"...but you MUST have USAPA's permission to have ANYBODY else in your meeting...

Why is that hard to understand? It was the exact same way when you were on the ALPA teet.


I had to re-read this a few times to try to comprehend the "confusion" over this...
I think I get it...this is the same "pig-logic" as our "fashionista" out west put forward at Parker...

(paraphrasing)
"...any west pilot who is FUR can go East and fly the 190....why? because the East seniority list pilots who are FUR from West and exercise recall rights back East get to...."

Uhhhh, yeah...just forget all the law and details...spin a creation and omission to suit your feeble-a^( case....

hilarious.

carry on...this is getting better and better all the time....
 
My all time favorite quote from your noble Leonidas: "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". There are countless variations of the same theme that've been posted within the past year. Folks..you just cant make this kind of insane, greed-soaked hypocrisy up.....
I keep hearing of this quote. Excuse my ignorance, but when and where was this said and is Leonidas the same former MEC chairman with barely ten years seniority?
 
There's a way to search it on this forum, but I don't know how...I'm sure someone will for you.

And, I don't think the ex-MEC Chair westie is LEO....

The ex-MEC chair westie is the guy who wanted to be able to call the company to "tattle" on East aircraft on 2 engine taxi's....(crew news video-PHX)

And was told NO by Robert Isom.
 
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