traderjake
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Nice language, but a little too much information about your personal preferences.
U.S. Pilot Labor Thread 9/28 - 10/05
- Thread starter Ralph
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Eastisleast
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Macktuck: Prime example of the angry f/o club. What a Dbag!
machtuck
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Ouch..
what a stinger.
Angry?
Not really.
just pissed enough to **** up your plans to screw us all?
Yep.
You had better chances when Parker owned you...now he has to deal with us out East.
So do you.
Enough said.
Merger Committee Update
October 3, 2008
As many of you know by now, on Tuesday of this past week, the Merger Committee presented Management with the US Airways Date of Hire Pilot system seniority list (available in the Library Section of the USAPA web site), along with a comprehensive set of Conditions and Restrictions. USAPA is committed to Date of Hire principles, derived from fundamental union principles which have been embraced by all of the other labor groups on this property as well as being embraced recently by the Pilots of United Airlines’ via resolution. Fundamental union principals also dictate a Date of Hire airline that recognizes the service of all of our Pilots in a fair and equitable fashion.
Creating Conditions and Restrictions (C and Rs) that will ensure a fair and equitable method to blend our two disparate Pilot groups has been no small task. The Merger Committee knows all too well that the seniority issues have been difficult, divisive and contentious for all our Pilots. We also understand that without adequate Conditions and Restrictions, problems would merely shift from one portion of the Pilot group to another. With this in mind we have worked extremely hard to create a set of Conditions and Restrictions that will protect the pre-merger career expectations of the former America West Pilots while at the same time moving our Pilot group forward with a Date of Hire seniority system.
The Conditions and Restrictions are detailed below. There will undoubtedly be questions as to the application of the C and Rs. Within the next couple of days we will have posted on the Merger Committee page, located on the USAPA web site at www.usairlinepilots.org, many of the most common Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs). If your question(s) are not answered there, please submit your question to merger@usairlinepilots.org and we will respond as soon as practical.
DATE OF HIRE CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS
US Airways Seniority Integration
Goals
1. Fair and equitable
2. Recognition that DOH seniority is a cornerstone in the foundation of our union
3. Although we are committed to a DOH airline, we intend to provide protection to West Pilots
List Construction
The US Airways Integrated Pilot System Seniority List was created from the 1 Jan 2007 certified lists from the two pre-merger airlines. All Pilots hired subsequently have been added in DOH order. Pilots who have resigned, retired, etc., remain on the list as placeholders only. Those names will be removed upon the publication of the next system seniority list in January. There has been no reordering of previous lists. It is our intent that the integrated list with its associated Conditions and Restrictions shall become effective upon contract signing.
West Provisions
We have designated the positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 Jun 2008, prior to the recent system reductions, as West protected positions. These protected positions are preserved for West Pilot bidding and displaced West Pilots have recapture rights back to LAS or PHX throughout the term of the Conditions and Restrictions with few exceptions. West protected positions are eliminated if voluntarily vacated. If the number of Pilot positions in LAS and PHX increases above the initial protected positions count, any additional new Captain vacancies in LAS and PHX shall be available to East and West Pilots on a 1 for 1 basis. Additionally, West attrition is reserved for West Pilots.
System-wide DOH bidding is available to West Pilots at any time following the contract signing date.
West Pilots shall be entitled to one-third of the Captain and one-third of the First Officer positions on the first 25 EMB190 aircraft delivered, on a vacancy basis only.
In the event that EMB190 flying replaces current flying in LAS or PHX, EMB190 positions in LAS or PHX will be available to be included in the protected positions.
East Provisions
East attrition has been preserved for East Pilots.
East Pilots may bid positions in LAS and PHX as West Pilots bid east, and as LAS and PHX flying expands above the 1 June 2008 levels. The addition of a different category of aircraft would be open to a system-wide bid.
Reduction of Flying
Reductions of Captain positions system-wide are shared East and West on a ratio basis. The ratios are established upon contract signing and are aircraft and pay group specific; the ratios will be based on the actual staffing levels that exist at that time. For example, if at contract signing the B-737 ratio is 10 East Captains for every 6 West Captains, then any B-737 Captain position reductions would be allocated using that ratio. The ratios will be readjusted 12 months following contract signing to account for staffing realignment due to work rule changes.
Catastrophic Reduction Clause
In the event of a catastrophic reduction in force of 25% or more of the Pilot position count which existed on 1 June 2008, the integrated system seniority list shall govern in all seniority-related matters.
Duration
The Duration of the Conditions and Restrictions shall be 10 years.
It is important to note that our seniority list as well as these Conditions and Restrictions represent USAPA’s proposal to US Airways management. Until we have a signed contract we do not know what the final form will be.
Thank you to all of our Pilots for the support you have provided.
In Solidarity, your USAPA Merger Committee
Randy Mowrey
Mike Turpen
Bob Davison
October 3, 2008
As many of you know by now, on Tuesday of this past week, the Merger Committee presented Management with the US Airways Date of Hire Pilot system seniority list (available in the Library Section of the USAPA web site), along with a comprehensive set of Conditions and Restrictions. USAPA is committed to Date of Hire principles, derived from fundamental union principles which have been embraced by all of the other labor groups on this property as well as being embraced recently by the Pilots of United Airlines’ via resolution. Fundamental union principals also dictate a Date of Hire airline that recognizes the service of all of our Pilots in a fair and equitable fashion.
Creating Conditions and Restrictions (C and Rs) that will ensure a fair and equitable method to blend our two disparate Pilot groups has been no small task. The Merger Committee knows all too well that the seniority issues have been difficult, divisive and contentious for all our Pilots. We also understand that without adequate Conditions and Restrictions, problems would merely shift from one portion of the Pilot group to another. With this in mind we have worked extremely hard to create a set of Conditions and Restrictions that will protect the pre-merger career expectations of the former America West Pilots while at the same time moving our Pilot group forward with a Date of Hire seniority system.
The Conditions and Restrictions are detailed below. There will undoubtedly be questions as to the application of the C and Rs. Within the next couple of days we will have posted on the Merger Committee page, located on the USAPA web site at www.usairlinepilots.org, many of the most common Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs). If your question(s) are not answered there, please submit your question to merger@usairlinepilots.org and we will respond as soon as practical.
DATE OF HIRE CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS
US Airways Seniority Integration
Goals
1. Fair and equitable
2. Recognition that DOH seniority is a cornerstone in the foundation of our union
3. Although we are committed to a DOH airline, we intend to provide protection to West Pilots
List Construction
The US Airways Integrated Pilot System Seniority List was created from the 1 Jan 2007 certified lists from the two pre-merger airlines. All Pilots hired subsequently have been added in DOH order. Pilots who have resigned, retired, etc., remain on the list as placeholders only. Those names will be removed upon the publication of the next system seniority list in January. There has been no reordering of previous lists. It is our intent that the integrated list with its associated Conditions and Restrictions shall become effective upon contract signing.
West Provisions
We have designated the positions that existed in LAS and PHX as of 1 Jun 2008, prior to the recent system reductions, as West protected positions. These protected positions are preserved for West Pilot bidding and displaced West Pilots have recapture rights back to LAS or PHX throughout the term of the Conditions and Restrictions with few exceptions. West protected positions are eliminated if voluntarily vacated. If the number of Pilot positions in LAS and PHX increases above the initial protected positions count, any additional new Captain vacancies in LAS and PHX shall be available to East and West Pilots on a 1 for 1 basis. Additionally, West attrition is reserved for West Pilots.
System-wide DOH bidding is available to West Pilots at any time following the contract signing date.
West Pilots shall be entitled to one-third of the Captain and one-third of the First Officer positions on the first 25 EMB190 aircraft delivered, on a vacancy basis only.
In the event that EMB190 flying replaces current flying in LAS or PHX, EMB190 positions in LAS or PHX will be available to be included in the protected positions.
East Provisions
East attrition has been preserved for East Pilots.
East Pilots may bid positions in LAS and PHX as West Pilots bid east, and as LAS and PHX flying expands above the 1 June 2008 levels. The addition of a different category of aircraft would be open to a system-wide bid.
Reduction of Flying
Reductions of Captain positions system-wide are shared East and West on a ratio basis. The ratios are established upon contract signing and are aircraft and pay group specific; the ratios will be based on the actual staffing levels that exist at that time. For example, if at contract signing the B-737 ratio is 10 East Captains for every 6 West Captains, then any B-737 Captain position reductions would be allocated using that ratio. The ratios will be readjusted 12 months following contract signing to account for staffing realignment due to work rule changes.
Catastrophic Reduction Clause
In the event of a catastrophic reduction in force of 25% or more of the Pilot position count which existed on 1 June 2008, the integrated system seniority list shall govern in all seniority-related matters.
Duration
The Duration of the Conditions and Restrictions shall be 10 years.
It is important to note that our seniority list as well as these Conditions and Restrictions represent USAPA’s proposal to US Airways management. Until we have a signed contract we do not know what the final form will be.
Thank you to all of our Pilots for the support you have provided.
In Solidarity, your USAPA Merger Committee
Randy Mowrey
Mike Turpen
Bob Davison
NiceLandingCaptain
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What a crock. The west #1 shows up as #720 - and it just gets worse from there.
It will never fly.
It will never fly.
machtuck
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Thank you moderators....I concede my language got "testy"...
I appreciate your candor in allowing the sentiment of my posts to continue...
I'll try harder to refrain from questonable language as it relates to my west "bretheren" in the future.
I appreciate your candor in allowing the sentiment of my posts to continue...
I'll try harder to refrain from questonable language as it relates to my west "bretheren" in the future.
NiceLandingCaptain
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I stand corrected. A greivence was filed on August 29 with the company by usapa to address the out of seniority issue.
Why this grevience is not shown on the usap web site is anybody's guess. My bad - machtuck got this one right.
Meanwhile 44 westies are on the street effective 10/1. Around 50 more have received notification that they will be gone 11/1.
How many eastyz are gone? I heard 16.
Could it be that the union leaders - all eastyz - are not really "pressing" to get this grevience heard?
Tiger 1050
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Freighterguynow
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It's not a shared list. It's looking to the future when a ratified CBA integrates the pilot workforce. It's called 'constructive notice' and it means: hey bubba, you will not be participating in the merging AAA/AWA lists but rather you WILL go to the bottom and you WILL be placed there DOH.
Until then, from the TA (yes it's on the USAPA website under LOA 96) :
"The pilot workforces of America West and US Airways will remain separate and covered by their respective collective bargaining agreements until Operational Pilot Integration ..."
You may as well sue Continental for furloughing pilots junior to you over there because you're just as close to holding a seniority number there as on the East.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
Maybe the current west number one shows up at 720, but so what.
Number 720 will afford that pilot number one seniority in the sandboxes out west, and, as long as the west pilots stay out west (as they all say they want to do,) there will be no opportunity for an east pilot with a higher seniority to get into PHX or LAS.
So...if you can keep all of your west pilots in place (as if the merger never happened,) you all get to keep exactly what you had before and share any expansion. Of course, if any of you bolt eastward, you open the gate which swings both ways.
If you are not interested in any of the east flying, this whole thing should be moot. But, you will have to walk your talk.
I just got a look at the east proposed seniority list. You're kidding, right? I stand by my previous statement that I don't like nor respect what usapa and its supporters are doing. I am willing to bet this list never sees the light of day and that its proposal will enable the west lawsuits against you to succeed.
You try to scare us by saying how slow the courts are and how much this will cost the west. You have lain down the gauntlet. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by staying the course in these lawsuits. The court system will be quicker than the 10 year conditions and restrictions which SO favor the east.
Although I am now quite confident that the west will prevail I am saddened that my peers on the west and myself will never forget the level of despicability the east has displayed. This is truly a sad day.
You try to scare us by saying how slow the courts are and how much this will cost the west. You have lain down the gauntlet. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain by staying the course in these lawsuits. The court system will be quicker than the 10 year conditions and restrictions which SO favor the east.
Although I am now quite confident that the west will prevail I am saddened that my peers on the west and myself will never forget the level of despicability the east has displayed. This is truly a sad day.
Megasnoop
Veteran
Ok, fantasy mongers, Im still a Fox “Red Eye†fan so Ive got to run another “TVs Andy Levy†half-time report here. This weeks “facts,"
SirLurk, based on USAPAs constitution, you cant have a domicile meeting without reps. No reps, no meetings.
TAZZ, saying you hate someone sounds more like a whine than just stating an opinion. And he said he pointed at (Boss) Hogg and said he hated Lyle too. How can anyone hate that big teddybear?
Regardless how many times you ignore it, McIlvenna filed a grievance USAPA is pursuing. So sue away. McIlvennas grandstanding grievance hurt your chances in DFR court/injunction court. Just ask your lawyers. BTW, how those court actions going? not too good? If USAPA wins the McIlvenna grievance a year down the road, the company will have to reimburse those furloughed out of seniority while separate operations. USAPA, Dont screw it up!
“I'd bet my bottom dollar that if it was the East getting slammed with the majority of furloughs USAPA wouldn't be so content to do and say nothing.†Ex717guy, the company is dead wrong the way they furloughed the new hires. USAPA IS doing something. Their following up on McIlvennas grievance. not grandstanding to your liking, but theyre on it.
“think your moral compass is off when you promote and now condone hatred.†Freightguy now, Too bad your “I HATE YOU!†pilot doesnt.
Nicelandingcaptain, I thought your license plate was a photo-shop creation. But no, theres an email of your Honda circulating with your FUSAPA plate. You’ve got a lot of pent up anger. Consider counseling?
“A big thank you to usapa, the passing of the new seniority list to the company is a great help in our litigation and will be included in the reply for motion to dismiss, thanks again.†Any time,Fodase. But since no one has seen the list and its restrictions, its still work product and wont help you at all in court
“More like required. I may not be an expert in labor law but I would imagine that since the NMB has certified your union to be the CBA of US Airways pilots then said union is obligated to conduct union business and represent their members as written in the bylaws.†Lurk, your not members. you dont want to participate, its hard to do union business when you harass any west pilot who wants to represent you.
“You might try reading your contract. USAPA has to send a registered letter that you have 15 days to respond to. When USAPA bags it's first pilot I might consider taking what you say seriously. Until then continue your mindless chest thumping.†Traderjake, USAPA is pursuing termination of east pilots as well. Imsure youll get a notice soon. Theres no Susie Stegmyer loophole in USAPAs constitution for you to hide behind. USAPA will close the loophole with a constitution change and Susiell be shown the door if she doesnt pay.
“Even prior to the filing of the plaintiffs’ Complaint, USAPA had filed a grievance in support of the pre-merger West pilots’ right not to be furloughed until the New Hire Seniority List has been exhausted. USAPA has requested that the Company cooperate in expediting the processing of that grievance.†Mach, dont confuse them with facts. There minds are already made up.
“There is no evidence presented by the grievance committee that any such action has been taken. The east has shown that it is quite content with things exactly as they are - westyz furloughed out of seniority.†The USAPA leadership owes nonmembers/nonpayers proof of nothing. Back east, we find out what is going on by making a phone call. We ID ourselves as dues-paying members and get answers. Theres some new-hires being furloughed out of seniority who joined USAPA. USAPA is communicating with them. We owe you nothing on communication until you join and/or pay agency fee. Again, the company is dead wrong on this. Furloughs shouldnt be based on where you are assigned after hired. But thats not really anything to do with the McIlvenna grievance.
“If usap were serious, they would settle the lawsuit regarding furloughs with AOL. How do you explain usapa's (in)actions there? Its usap's actions that speak volumes - not their word.†How can USAPA settle anything with AOL on furloughs? The companies furlough, not unions. We cant make them go away except by grievance. The grievance is filed.
“This latter argument finds support in both the terms of the Transition Agreement and basic union concepts of seniority. Even prior to the filing of the plaintiffs’ Complaint, USAPA had filed a grievance in support of the pre-merger West pilots’ right not to be furloughed until the New Hire Seniority List has been exhausted. USAPA has requested that the Company cooperate in expediting the processing of that grievance.†Ok, Machtuck. Enough is enough. Quit quoting facts in context.
I didnt get any west response last time, so I say again, with our 300 or so “I want my pre-loa93 contract back†senior CAs, our 300 ALPO loyalists an your 1700 militants, youve got the votes to tube any upcoming contract. Its your only hope. The Snooper
SirLurk, based on USAPAs constitution, you cant have a domicile meeting without reps. No reps, no meetings.
TAZZ, saying you hate someone sounds more like a whine than just stating an opinion. And he said he pointed at (Boss) Hogg and said he hated Lyle too. How can anyone hate that big teddybear?
Regardless how many times you ignore it, McIlvenna filed a grievance USAPA is pursuing. So sue away. McIlvennas grandstanding grievance hurt your chances in DFR court/injunction court. Just ask your lawyers. BTW, how those court actions going? not too good? If USAPA wins the McIlvenna grievance a year down the road, the company will have to reimburse those furloughed out of seniority while separate operations. USAPA, Dont screw it up!
“I'd bet my bottom dollar that if it was the East getting slammed with the majority of furloughs USAPA wouldn't be so content to do and say nothing.†Ex717guy, the company is dead wrong the way they furloughed the new hires. USAPA IS doing something. Their following up on McIlvennas grievance. not grandstanding to your liking, but theyre on it.
“think your moral compass is off when you promote and now condone hatred.†Freightguy now, Too bad your “I HATE YOU!†pilot doesnt.
Nicelandingcaptain, I thought your license plate was a photo-shop creation. But no, theres an email of your Honda circulating with your FUSAPA plate. You’ve got a lot of pent up anger. Consider counseling?
“A big thank you to usapa, the passing of the new seniority list to the company is a great help in our litigation and will be included in the reply for motion to dismiss, thanks again.†Any time,Fodase. But since no one has seen the list and its restrictions, its still work product and wont help you at all in court
“More like required. I may not be an expert in labor law but I would imagine that since the NMB has certified your union to be the CBA of US Airways pilots then said union is obligated to conduct union business and represent their members as written in the bylaws.†Lurk, your not members. you dont want to participate, its hard to do union business when you harass any west pilot who wants to represent you.
“You might try reading your contract. USAPA has to send a registered letter that you have 15 days to respond to. When USAPA bags it's first pilot I might consider taking what you say seriously. Until then continue your mindless chest thumping.†Traderjake, USAPA is pursuing termination of east pilots as well. Imsure youll get a notice soon. Theres no Susie Stegmyer loophole in USAPAs constitution for you to hide behind. USAPA will close the loophole with a constitution change and Susiell be shown the door if she doesnt pay.
“Even prior to the filing of the plaintiffs’ Complaint, USAPA had filed a grievance in support of the pre-merger West pilots’ right not to be furloughed until the New Hire Seniority List has been exhausted. USAPA has requested that the Company cooperate in expediting the processing of that grievance.†Mach, dont confuse them with facts. There minds are already made up.
“There is no evidence presented by the grievance committee that any such action has been taken. The east has shown that it is quite content with things exactly as they are - westyz furloughed out of seniority.†The USAPA leadership owes nonmembers/nonpayers proof of nothing. Back east, we find out what is going on by making a phone call. We ID ourselves as dues-paying members and get answers. Theres some new-hires being furloughed out of seniority who joined USAPA. USAPA is communicating with them. We owe you nothing on communication until you join and/or pay agency fee. Again, the company is dead wrong on this. Furloughs shouldnt be based on where you are assigned after hired. But thats not really anything to do with the McIlvenna grievance.
“If usap were serious, they would settle the lawsuit regarding furloughs with AOL. How do you explain usapa's (in)actions there? Its usap's actions that speak volumes - not their word.†How can USAPA settle anything with AOL on furloughs? The companies furlough, not unions. We cant make them go away except by grievance. The grievance is filed.
“This latter argument finds support in both the terms of the Transition Agreement and basic union concepts of seniority. Even prior to the filing of the plaintiffs’ Complaint, USAPA had filed a grievance in support of the pre-merger West pilots’ right not to be furloughed until the New Hire Seniority List has been exhausted. USAPA has requested that the Company cooperate in expediting the processing of that grievance.†Ok, Machtuck. Enough is enough. Quit quoting facts in context.
I didnt get any west response last time, so I say again, with our 300 or so “I want my pre-loa93 contract back†senior CAs, our 300 ALPO loyalists an your 1700 militants, youve got the votes to tube any upcoming contract. Its your only hope. The Snooper
Phoenix
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Ah the "MDA pilots"...
I can understand the passion that pilots have about the claimed injustices against pilots as a result of the company's unilateral classification of "MDA pilots". However it ceases to amaze me that anyone would continue to boldly cite examples of the alleged injustices suffered by all pilots.. and proclaim (with a straight face?) the example of that alleged injustice as though it is the justification.
Gee... "the MDA issue is actually very simple".. there is no question that the alleged injustices occurred. So what.
The real question is.. "Did the company have authority to classify pilots as "MDA pilots" and deny them the employment benefits given to other USAir pilots? Or the authority to deny other USAir pilots the same opportunity to fly any equipment operated by the company?"
Answering that question by screaming "Did so-called MDA pilots have the right to bid any USAir equipment (and receive more pay for such)?" only serves to establish that the alleged injustice in fact did occur, but does nothing to discern if the company did or did not meet their obligations of equity to its employees.
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