UAL could outsource a max of 2600 plus jobs

[T5towbar]

Looks like the 12 stations voted for the modifications in the contract to save their stations.
 
Just read the news this morning.
 
Most of us thought it was going to pass, because the cuts wasn't that severe.  So the insourcing of the rest of the stations can begin and and any system options can now take place for the rest of the outsourced people. Problem is the company is going to make things difficult by limiting either FT slots or unattractive system choices.  (that way, it would limit or prevent a system bump) I just hope they make the choice that will suit them. Some will either take their chances on the system or take furlough, now that the numbers involved will be set.
 
Once this is done, the real battle begins...........
 
Good luck to my brothers and sisters who had to make this difficult choice.

 

[700UW]

The data for the ramp is not accurate, it lumps Passenger Service into the average, different class and craft and different CBA.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, we heard you say that a dozen times already.

why don't you explain who DL's entire workforce including airport employees see larger rates of increases than anything that UA employees saw?

you can't

and you can't defend thousands of UA employees being forced to move, lose their jobs, or vote to reduce their pay in order to not have their station outsourced - all under an IAM contract.

you can't defend it because there is no excuse for union leadership that allowed UA to cut as much as it has.

 

[T5towbar]

there are TWO years worth of nearly 20 year old data that are wrong because UA used the incorrect number of maintenance personnel.

Any one including you can see the error.

that doesn't make the rest of the data inaccurate.

what you don't want to admit - and it is equally obvious - is that the data for the past 5 years, not 20 years ago, shows that DL's non-union employees have enjoyed the highest growth in compensation of any US airline

that data is indisputable even if you want to argue about combined workgroups at the airport.

and since this is a UA thread, comparisons between DL and UA employees show that DL employees are not only higher paid than DL employees in 2013 including for FAs but also that UA employee salaries actually went DOWN in 2013 overall, driven by decreases for FAs and airport ground staff.

so, tell us what argument you are going to use to disprove that data.

The only reason why salaries went down was because of the cuts the last 2 and a half years. 
In other words, the membership has been cut. We have a lot of people at TOS, because the rest have been gone. 
 
But I do know one thing........ If we didn't go Union, we wold have lost more people. The cuts of 2004-05 proves that point.  Everybody else (MX; FA; Pilots) got theirs back, while we didnt.  They had contracts.........

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet DL has been hiring more which should also drive the averages down... so UA is cutting the size of its workforce and the total value of the work they are doing is less than at DL.

if there are more people at TOS, the averages would be going up. that is not happening

and your argument about "we have to have a union because if we don't, they will come after us" highlights exactly the contentious union-mgmt. environment that exists at AA and UA and has for decades.

AA employees have a little breather now but the same story has existed at both AA and UA for years.... labor is doing nothing more than keeping a small bandaid on a gusher that is still growing... while DL and WN are going in the opposite direction.

AA and UA mgmt. even by your own statements are winning.

 

[700UW]

Hiring ready reserve who get one raise top out at like $12 and have no seniority, no pension, no benefits, only flight privileges
 
DL ramp has ZERO protections, ask those from MCO, DFW, MEM, CVG and SLC about protections.

 

[WeAAsles]

Unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that DL is not and has not been increasing the number of ready reserves in their ground handling operations since the merger with NWA you prove nothing. Those who work "directly" for Delta have stated that those numbers are increasing so that is the story I have to go with until proven otherwise. I believe it's more than likely a slow systematic attrition of those who are higher paid being replaced by those who will be lower payed. Delta management is not immune to share holders consistent demand for more profit and shareholder value and will continue to be pressured to provide.

Speaking in regards to AA you are 100% correct that my Union when faced with the court procedure of Bankruptcy was not able to do anything against the cuts demanded in that venue. It's the laws and how they are written that are the failure though, not the bargaining agent. Without the bargaining agent cuts would have been imposed by the company however they saw fit to apply them. In that venue though we were represented by those who applied the cuts the best way they thought would be accepted through a VOTE of the members. We also were able to have Lawyers to represent us which is something that no Unorganized group can have because there are no contracts in place between labor and the company. AND because of that I was provided with Equity for my first years losses that by the end of the first year had exactly equaled those losses. (I was compensated in FULL for my losses)

Delta on the other hand is not restricted by any contracts as a detriment to their business. As a full time TOS employee at Delta I would know for a fact that I would have a bullseye on my back. It would be beyond ridiculous of me to assume that they enjoy paying me what they are and I'm sure would be keenly watching for any trip up that I might do as an excuse to drop the hammer and replace me with a much lower paid body. I've read hundreds of those people's stories now on Facebook and the FACT is I don't hear or have read ANY of those stories of unfair terminations at AA. Anyone who has been terminated ultimately has had their day in court so to say through the grievance procedure and yes their terminations many times are held. The difference though between AA and Delta is that AA does NOT terminate people too often because it's not going to waste the money on someone if it knows that person will WIN through the grievance procedure and come back to work, maybe even with full back pay.

For all this talk of averages and people being paid whatever, the value that is purposely ignored by the poster is security. The security of knowing that I do not have that bullseye on my back. That I can do my job and be a pain in the ass to a member of management knowing that just being a pain in the ass cannot get me fired. I mean really what good is having a job of any kind if you know that the company you work for can get rid of you at any time of their choosing? And that the only reason they might be getting rid of you is because you advocate for better pay and working conditions or simply because the company feels you are being paid too much and they don't like it?

Sorry but I know exactly what value I have in my contract and it's absolutely NOT just what I get PAID!!!!!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet DL airport people, and there are ready reserves in all areas, make higher wages than their peers at AA or UA.

RR is a union invented argument that doesn't hold water when real world stats are examined.

all of the paper in the world that is held by thousands of AA and UA employees has done nothing to keep DL employees from earning hire wages in most cases and in ALL CASES, DL employees have seen faster and larger salary growth than their peers at other US airlines.

I don't expect the union salespeople to give up easily - but the facts are overwhelming that DL people are better off without unions if they don't have them already.

 

[700UW]

Lets do some math World Fraudster.
 
A DL RR making $12 an our is < than an AA or US making $23 an hour.

 

[WeAAsles]

and yet DL airport people, and there are ready reserves in all areas, make higher wages than their peers at AA or UA.

RR is a union invented argument that doesn't hold water when real world stats are examined.

all of the paper in the world that is held by thousands of AA and UA employees has done nothing to keep DL employees from earning hire wages in most cases and in ALL CASES, DL employees have seen faster and larger salary growth than their peers at other US airlines.

I don't expect the union salespeople to give up easily - but the facts are overwhelming that DL people are better off without unions if they don't have them already.

All the unions can say is to spout emotionally driven, factually inaccurate statements.

Thank you for proving my point. The absolute only focus you have is either wages or profit sharing. You have no other real ammunition against what a CONTRACT (Forget that it comes from a Union) has to offer. I have a term of employment that is in writing. It doesn't matter whether or not I negotiated that or any other party negotiated that. What that contract is is a legal and binding agreement between me and my employer that can only be changed through negotiations or through a court procedure. And also being under the RLA my contract never expires, it only becomes amendable. Which basically means that if (I) chose I have a job until (I) chose to no longer have it.

The difference between what I have and what my Delta counterparts do not have is stated on page 1 and has 209 pages in total (An Agreement)

http://twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/aa_FleetServiceAgreement.pdf

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet you can't prove that your contract delivers materially better terms for you or for employees at UA.

because the evidence is that your contract is nothing more than toilet paper.

RRs don't bring the calculation down either... probably because as much as you don't want to admit it, DL's profit sharing really does move its employees WAY up the pay scale while the IAM and TWU gave up the very profit sharing that has propelled DL and WN employees to significantly higher wages... and is giving DL employees the fastest increase in compensation.

DL employees make more. period.

you can harp about paper and security all you want but the facts are on the side of DL employees.

the IAM and TWU are about nothing more than to try to create emotionally based fear that is unsupported when confronted by the facts

 

[WeAAsles]

and yet you can't prove that your contract delivers materially better terms for you or for employees at UA.

because the evidence is that your contract is nothing more than toilet paper.

RRs don't bring the calculation down either... probably because as much as you don't want to admit it, DL's profit sharing really does move its employees WAY up the pay scale while the IAM and TWU gave up the very profit sharing that has propelled DL and WN employees to significantly higher wages... and is giving DL employees the fastest increase in compensation.

DL employees make more. period.

you can harp about paper and security all you want but the facts are on the side of DL employees.

the IAM and TWU are about nothing more than to try to create emotionally based fear that is unsupported when confronted by the facts

Of course my contract creates value for me. I'm a pain in the ass and yet I still have a job. I have been on camera at certain times being critical of my company and yet I still have a job. I have said things much worse than Kip Hedges did at Delta and I still have a job. I know others who have said much worse as well and they are all still employed.

Why do companies have to go Bankrupt because they need to get out from under or seek modifications to CONTRACTS.

If a company had NO contracts with anyone they would be able to set any terms they like and not have to take those issues through a court procedure correct?

So because of that then how do you surmise that there is no value in having a contract? If there is no value in contracts then members of management would not have any either correct?

Do you see no value in contracts? Have you personally ever had a contract? Do you have any contracts currently that protect you in any way?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

there are TWO years worth of nearly 20 year old data that are wrong because UA used the incorrect number of maintenance personnel.

Any one including you can see the error.

that doesn't make the rest of the data inaccurate.

what you don't want to admit - and it is equally obvious - is that the data for the past 5 years, not 20 years ago, shows that DL's non-union employees have enjoyed the highest growth in compensation of any US airline

that data is indisputable even if you want to argue about combined workgroups at the airport.

 
The examples I gave were simply the most glaring at first glance, how are you sure there aren't more? If United made a mistake reporting, couldn't AA or DL?
 
For instance - according to the data under Total In-House Passenger, Cargo and Aircraft Handling Employee Equivalents for 2013  UAL has 43,700 vs DAL at 26,446 - so because the rest of the data MUST be accurate UAL and their UNION contracts keep more work in this area in house where Non-union, non-contract delta outsources more.
 
That's the point you can't be sure, but you're so desperate to try and use this as some sort of definative proof of something when at the onset it has glaring inaccuracies.
 
That is why the report cannot be reiied upon to accurately deduce anything related to wages benefits, staffing etc.

 

[swamt]

Thank you for proving my point. The absolute only focus you have is either wages or profit sharing. You have no other real ammunition against what a CONTRACT (Forget that it comes from a Union) has to offer. I have a term of employment that is in writing. It doesn't matter whether or not I negotiated that or any other party negotiated that. What that contract is is a legal and binding agreement between me and my employer that can only be changed through negotiations or through a court procedure. And also being under the RLA my contract never expires, it only becomes amendable. Which basically means that if (I) chose I have a job until (I) chose to no longer have it.

The difference between what I have and what my Delta counterparts do not have is stated on page 1 and has 209 pages in total (An Agreement)

http://twu.org/Portals/0/AirContracts/aa_FleetServiceAgreement.pdf

Hear Hear!!  Exactly, agree 100%.  It's not ALL about the wages or PS or retirement.  The "VERBIAGE" about work rules, time off, time from home, downlines, service trips, AOG's ect..  All these are examples (and not all examples there are more) of how one enity could be paid $50 per hour and one could be paid $45 per hour, but in the end and at the end of each and every month the $50 dollar per hour employee was actually paid much less than the $45 per hour employee.  You have to read between the lines and all "VERBIAGE" when considering a new contract.  Most people just focus on pay, and comp. as what makes their mind up for a vote.  Just like you told this individual, he only looks at the pay, or PS.  When you look at the entire package and include all "VERBIAGE" concerning pay, hol, vac, fh, sick, 401K's, retirement, ot pay including triple time, day trades, shift trades, paid rest ect ect... There is no way Delta is at the top, and probably more like closer to the bottom.  Although time off pay does not affect us as mechanics as much as it does for like Pilots, but it does make a huge difference, period.  Again WeAAsles, thx for not just focusing on the money, when the body of the contract is sometimes worth even more...

 

[WorldTraveler]

but all of that has a cost, which strangely doesn't translate into real monetary value for AA or UA employees....

you and the union ilk that slink around this board aren't going to admit that unions have failed to deliver what they promised but the data is there... and the fact that unionization in the US is as low as it is says that American workers see little value in union representation.

but I'm sure you will argue that is all wrong data too.