US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 9/19- 9/27..

[azdryheat]

As a UA pilot, this is the first time I have seen another UA pilot advocate support for the East. To me it all boils down to three questions. Where on the merged list should the top pilot be? Where on the merged list should the middle seniority pilots be? Where on the merged list should the bottom pilots be?

If the bottom pilot on one list is not near the bottom on the merged list, I don't think it was done correctly.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I'm actually a United pilot myself, I think the list was done right.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I'm actually a United pilot myself, I think the list was done right.

Why thank you, thank you for your support. You know, all I hear from the east is how other airlines agree with them that the westies got a windfall. It's refreshing to hear the truth for a change. And you have a good day sir.

 

[nic4us]

Above is your extremely dishonest post number 3. There are 80 west guys right now who can hold A330 Captain above our bottom reserve who could not touch it but for the NIC. The guy hired 2 weeks after me is 60% closer to the number 1 spot on the entire list. You can spin it as you like. These 2 groups will never fly together. Put the NIC back under your pillow and dream away.

And how many A330s does the company now operate, and how many were here at the time of the merger, and how many are we scheduled to take delivery of in the next two years?

Nic gave the east the top 517 for a reason, but there are also reasons why West pilots can now hold 330 captain.

If you want to be frank, There are 142 West pilots now furloughed that are senior to east pilots holding International IRO, There are in excess of 120 West Captains displaced out of seniority, because the West took a bigger hit on the furloughs ( a 3.5 X bigger hit ) because we were further above TA fleet mins. So do not try and claim an unfair dispersement at the top of the list ( where no west pilot resides) when the east is illegally causing the theft of jobs at the bottom of the list.

The guy hired two weeks after you was not hired where you were, and used to be much closer to the number one spot, he moved backward in the Nic and you moved forward, you actually moved closer to the number 1 spot than you were prior to the Nic. Your failure to see this is not my fault, nor does it make my post dishonest.

 

[nic4us]

As a UA pilot, this is the first time I have seen another UA pilot advocate support for the East. To me it all boils down to three questions. Where on the merged list should the top pilot be? Where on the merged list should the middle seniority pilots be? Where on the merged list should the bottom pilots be?

If the bottom pilot on one list is not near the bottom on the merged list, I don't think it was done correctly.

The top east pilot is the top combined list pilot, along with 517 other east pilots on top.

The top west pilot moved down to reside at the 10% level.

The middle east pilot moved up, the middle west pilot moved down.

The bottom last pilot on the east list was placed one number above the bottom last pilot on the West list.

The UA MC along with the NW MC published reviews of the Nic seniority integration, the conclusion of both was that this integration was done appropriately, but if you do not wish to leave your fate to a third party, it is better to negotiate. By the way the NW pilots did not follow their own advice and ended up in arbitration during the DL merger, but when all is said and done they are honoring their commitment to that arbitration.

 

[ROACLT]

Why thank you, thank you for your support. You know, all I hear from the east is how other airlines agree with them that the westies got a windfall. It's refreshing to hear the truth for a change. And you have a good day sir.

Is there some MPD going on on the forum. Someone forgot to sign out and sign back in under an alter.

 

[767jetz]

any other UA pilot who sides with AWA is free to post so.

Actually this is not 100% accurate. As a poster here and on the UA forum for MANY years I can accurately say that any UA pilot expressing any sentiment at all that does not agree with the East view of the world is attacked ruthlessly and indefinitely. The folks you run into here (and I'm sure they don't represent every East pilot) have no interest in discussion or exchange of competing ideas. While I still occasionally stop in to get an update on the ongoing civil war, I don't bother interjecting or expressing my support for the West anymore, until the subject of UAL comes up.

What happened between you and USAir will NOT happen with us..

With this I agree.

I can report that there is a large sentiment over here about this notion of "we win, you gambled and lost" argument being put forward by many AWA pilots.

I disagree here. As a UA pilot also I do not see and overwhelming amount of support for the position taken by the East posters here or their union created to force their will on everyone else. These are the same guys who wanted our 747 manuals when the merger of 2001 was announced.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the way it went down, but the East were given the chance to negotiate throughout the process and CHOSE to rigidly stay with thier DOH position, even during the mediation phase when the arbitrator strongly suggested that they soften their stand. They were warned that their position, un altered, would not ode well if it got to biding arbitration.

One only needs to see how the NW/DL merger played out to see how future deals (if any) will move forward. Talk to anyone on either side (I have) and you will see that they mostly feel it was done fairly. Some good some bad but overall acceptable. Neither side saw any significant change in their relative position, fleet or seat. No one saw their future progression diminished. Safeguards are in place to protect certain assets like the Pacific flying.

What you won't and see in the future is junior reserve narrowbody F/O's or furloughed pilots suddenly senior to line holding narowbody captains, etc. This is what USAPA is trying to do to the West.

Now, let my grab my nomex suit and prepare for the flame-throwers...

 

[hp_fa]

For comments such as this?

Why does an AWA flight attendant care anyway?

 

[Waketurbulence]

Now, let my grab my nomex suit and prepare for the flame-throwers...

Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Is there some MPD going on on the forum. Someone forgot to sign out and sign back in under an alter.

Nah, that was just me spoofing the made up banter between N1 and Hawk. That was so obviously scripted and fake it's not even funny.

 

[BoeingBoy]

There are 80 west guys right now who can hold A330 Captain above our bottom reserve who could not touch it but for the NIC.

Congrations for proving the obvious...

Obvious #1 - in any pilot group flying multiple fleet types, not everyone will bid the biggest/highest pay rate equipment as soon as they have the seniority to do so. How many East group 1 and 2 captains are senior to that same bottom A330 reserve captain - 200, 300, 400, more?

Obvious #2 - the Nic list was designed for a combined airline as of May 2005 - some West pilots were senior to the current bottom A330 reserve Captain then. By artificially delaying integration beyond recelipt of a single certificate, the pool of West pilots waiting to bid what their Nic seniority can hold just grows.

Obvious #3 - the effect of combining #1 and #2 or the old "you can pay me now or pay me later" - the West pilots will eventually be able to bid those jobs. The longer it takes to reach that point the larger the number of West pilots in line waiting and the longer the junior East pilots experience a drought in upward movement. Instead of giving everyone a shot at upward movement, the East game is to protect the upward movement of the top/middle of the East list as long as possible then leave the mess for their junior East partners to endure.

Obvious #4 - as has already been pointed out, how many A330 captain positions are there today versus in May 2005? Versus the projected East fleet plan in the transition agreement? The answer is 3 airplane's worth - three planes that were delivered as a result of the merger, with 2 more supposedly coming next quarter. There's a good chunk of those 80 jobs that West pilots can hold, plus the junior East A330 captain would be more senior if there were only 9 A330's in the fleet as the transition agreement projected. So the East is not just putting off the inevitable but is keeping West pilots out of what whould be shared growth jobs created by the merger.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

The only thing that has kept Cleary from being recalled is that this tactic has been effective. Extrordinarily expensive. Extrordinarily devisive. But it has been effective.

However, as BB has succinctly captured it, the mess will not be one that the current beneficiaries will be forced to clean up. The junior pilots who will wake up and find their trust in USAPA misplaced and realize they are on the losing side of the USAPA "have's vs have-nots" segregation. They will pay the price with todays wages and tomarrows upgrades while the senior and mid-senior pilots retire having sought comfort in delaying the seniority integration until it's no longer their problem.

 

[cleardirect]

Some of us at UAUA have been watching and taking notes about this train-wreck. While there are some varying opinions, I can report that there is a large sentiment over here about this notion of "we win, you gambled and lost" argument being put forward by many AWA pilots. That is no way to conduct a fair merger, and certainly not a "policy", it's a "crap-shoot" that you seem to be comfortable with since you out in PHX generally absorb ALL of US's built-in attrition which THEY brought to the table, not you. Therefore, it is widely thought out here that you are not entitled to it. I will not engage in banter over "final and binding" as you tend to do out in PHX, but will say that UAUA will not allow this type of mentality to occur should some announcement come out later about us. If it's not fair with NO obvious winfalls, it's not going to happen. Many predict UAUA will declare again, who knows, but that would never mean a 2004 DOH AWA pilot jumps up our list, you can believe that.

We'll be watching.

Before you get to set in your righteous position of what you will and will not accept. What you consider a windfall.
I might suggest that you take some time and seek out Captain Stephen Gillen UAUA pilot. He was the neutral that sat on the Nicolau arbitration. Find him and ask your own guy what happened and why the list is constructed the way it is. It may help if United is involved in a merger.

It may help you understand by learning the facts. I doubt you would believe them from one of us. Get them from your own guy. If he is your guy.

It seems funny that you mention attrition. That is usually where the east pilots go first to complain. Take a look at the DAL/NWA award. It address attrition in that one. It is informative what three arbitrators thought about attrition and what value it had.

 

[Barrister]

Congrations for proving the obvious...

Obvious #1 - in any pilot group flying multiple fleet types, not everyone will bid the biggest/highest pay rate equipment as soon as they have the seniority to do so. How many East group 1 and 2 captains are senior to that same bottom A330 reserve captain - 200, 300, 400, more?

Obvious #2 - the Nic list was designed for a combined airline as of May 2005 - some West pilots were senior to the current bottom A330 reserve Captain then. By artificially delaying integration beyond recelipt of a single certificate, the pool of West pilots waiting to bid what their Nic seniority can hold just grows.

Obvious #3 - the effect of combining #1 and #2 or the old "you can pay me now or pay me later" - the West pilots will eventually be able to bid those jobs. The longer it takes to reach that point the larger the number of West pilots in line waiting and the longer the junior East pilots experience a drought in upward movement. Instead of giving everyone a shot at upward movement, the East game is to protect the upward movement of the top/middle of the East list as long as possible then leave the mess for their junior East partners to endure.

Obvious #4 - as has already been pointed out, how many A330 captain positions are there today versus in May 2005? Versus the projected East fleet plan in the transition agreement? The answer is 3 airplane's worth - three planes that were delivered as a result of the merger, with 2 more supposedly coming next quarter. There's a good chunk of those 80 jobs that West pilots can hold, plus the junior East A330 captain would be more senior if there were only 9 A330's in the fleet as the transition agreement projected. So the East is not just putting off the inevitable but is keeping West pilots out of what whould be shared growth jobs created by the merger.

Jim

Sir, so much for your credibility as well as your accuracy. Did you miss the part about "but for the NIC". The bottom 330 Capt is a 81 hire. Your company did not exists until 83. Get your facts straight first and then you can distort them anyway you like. NIC gave you slots you would NEVER see otherwise. Done schooling you. Have a nice life.

 

[cleardirect]

Sir, so much for your credibility as well as your accuracy. Did you miss the part about "but for the NIC". The bottom 330 Capt is a 81 hire. Your company did not exists until 83. Get your facts straight first and then you can distort them anyway you like. NIC gave you slots you would NEVER see otherwise. Done schooling you. Have a nice life.

Um. Talk about get your facts straight.

BB is an east pilot.