USAPA Loses DFR Case!/US pilot thread

[UtterlyUdder]

Yea and that 20 year pilot has spent 12 on furlough. How do you know what the prior experience of the 10 year pilot would be?

Mainly because pilots on furlough usually find another job in a cockpit until recall. They don't sit around a rot in the interim.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Just my Two Cents……..

'How do you think the Judge would feel if he knew that USAPA felt he was....maybe a little unfair and didn't know the law? Judges have a history of not being very friendly if their name is kicked around in anyway shape or form and they...... like pilots are all members of the same boys club…. '

That is pure drivel. Appeals are filed all the time against judges by appellants who believe the a judge made a mistake or misused the law. If your idea of the justice system is equating judges with "same boys club" then you need to do some serious reading to understand how wrong you are. What do you think Appeals Courts are for?

 

[N924PS]

Mainly because pilots on furlough usually find another job in a cockpit until recall. They don't sit around a rot in the interim.

And then again many were unable to find suitable cockpit employment.

I have flown with returning furloughees that did construction jobs that paid more than the flying jobs that were available.

The didn't rot, they just weren't flying.

 

[N924PS]

That is pure drivel. Appeals are filed all the time against judges by appellants who believe the a judge made a mistake or misused the law. If your idea of the justice system is equating judges with "same boys club" then you need to do some serious reading to understand how wrong you are. What do you think Appeals Courts are for?

I suggest you carefully read the thousands of pages of transcripts of the past two weeks.

You will find the judge allowed tremendous latitude to both sides and was very careful in following the law.

USAPA may appeal, but the result will be the same. USAPA-Zero- Seeham -$$Millions.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

And then again many were unable to find suitable cockpit employment.

I have flown with returning furloughees that did construction jobs that paid more than the flying jobs that were available.

The didn't rot, they just weren't flying.

Ah but many of them did find flying jobs. Do you dispute that? I know many pilots who would forgo more money at another type of work than give up flying. It depends upon the individual.

 

[malikie]

Another windfall for the West pilots.

NIC award gives an AWA pilot with 10 years experience higher seniority and credits them with time served then a USA pilot with 20 years experience. Which in turn gives them the ability to out bid to fly bigger and higher paying equipment then the more experienced pilot.

Are you getting experience and seniority mixed up? Alot of pilots on the west may only have 10 years seniority with the company but may have flown and additional 10 years or so with a different company whch would make them the same level experience as their east counterpart..

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I suggest you carefully read the thousands of pages of transcripts of the past two weeks.

You will find the judge allowed tremendous latitude to both sides and was very careful in following the law.

USAPA may appeal, but the result will be the same. USAPA-Zero- Seeham -$$Millions.

I did read the transcripts, all of them.......I don't think that you can make the statement that the judge allowed such latitude to both sides and was very careful in following the law....unless you are a lawyer.

USAPA will appeal and you have no idea how it will turn out. Nor do I. Stranger things have happened in life than having a lawsuit overturned on appeal. I suggest you wait to see what happens when the expedited appeal is taken because you won't know until then. Nobody will.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I'm sure there's a conspiracy theory to be found somewhere. Just give him some time.

Even now, you and some of the others just can't give it a rest, can you? Well, it's not over yet so if I were you, I would wait until the appeal is over before I would gloat. You have no idea what will happen once the expedited appeal is taken, nor do I. But the verdict might be overturned and then what will you say?

 

[Tiger 1050]

Even now, you and some of the others just can't give it a rest, can you? Well, it's not over yet so if I were you, I would wait until the appeal is over before I would gloat. You have no idea what will happen once the expedited appeal is taken, nor do I. But the verdict might be overturned and then what will you say?

You guys slash with the best of them and now your gonna whine about a little gloating? GMAFB!

Tell ya what IF the 9th Circuit agrees to hear your appeal and you win I'll buy you a case of beer and use this board to publicly announce my idiocy. Deal? :blink:

 

[N924PS]

Even now, you and some of the others just can't give it a rest, can you? Well, it's not over yet so if I were you, I would wait until the appeal is over before I would gloat. You have no idea what will happen once the expedited appeal is taken, nor do I. But the verdict might be overturned and then what will you say?

I will say, thank God it's FINALLY over. Get me a contract and get me off LOA 93.

 

[PHL]

If this still doesn't go USAPA's way in the appeals, do we really think this is a case the Supreme court would even hear?

I think it's probably precedent setting, though. Because next time 2 airlines merge, they'll have the rulings in this case to think about when 2 labor groups are in dispute over seniority.

Godspeed to all....

 

[tazz]

I really wish the west would take this victory more graciously. As a non pilot and as someone who doesn't work for US I have mostly just observed this situation for the past two years and refrained from comment. Now this is coming from someone who is from Arizona, was rooting for the west and in no way thought that any solution involving DOH was fair or equitable. It just seems most of the west posters should sit back and stop trying to cut at the East posters. You are only deepening the divide and that to any logical person seems the exact opposite of what you would want to be doing at this point. Again this is just my opinion, but I'm sure I'm not the only outside observer that feels you guys at this point should try to act with some maturity and humility.

Please provide an example of the west not taking this victory graciously and lacking maturity. While you're at it take note of some of the east posters threatening to burn the house down when they don't get their way.

 

[hp_fa]

Day 10 - Trial - 5/13/09

(Jury Continues Deliberations)

In court

Plaintiffs discuss potential remedies as part of the "Bench Trial" (Mr. Jacob)

Plaintiffs' Numbered Points

1. USAPA must negotiate a single CBA utilizing unmodified Nicolau
2. USAPA must present the resulting CBA for ratification
3. Airline must give West pilots recall priority
4. Company may shift aircraft and/or flights to West to allow for recall of furloughed West pilots

Items #3 & 4 involve the Company so they would need a chance to respond to any such potential remedies

Discussion of potential remedies evidence and of the Court's authority

Court does not wish to add costs to the Company

Court wants this in final and appealable form ASAP

Court asks for an offer of proof of remedies evidence - Plaintiffs respond with likely testimony of Brian Stockdell on scheduling issues and analysis

Defendant's Position (Mr. Granneth)

Court is exceeding its authority - Counsel claims that in 15 years of labor law practice he has never seen such a departure from labor law principles (Granneth is clearly exceedingly frustrated with both the Court and plaintiffs counsel)

Plaintiffs are asking the Court to make Orders against non-parties (the Company)

Court lacks jurisdiction because numbered points 1 & 2 lie solely with the System Board of Adjustment

Plaintiff's are attempting at end-run arbitration

Court should not be involved in negotiations or be imposing a CBA

Plaintiff Calls Brian Stockdell as a witness

Discusses scheduling issues

He helped prepare the PowerPoint used in court today

Flight numbers > 700 = East flights

Flights < 700 = West flights

(10:37am - It is announced that the jury has reached a verdict)

(10:42am - Jury verdict read, Plaintiffs prevailed)

Jury dismissed

Court takes 30 minute break

Court resumes

Plaintiffs withdraw point #3 of their numbered items

Plaintiffs seek to have the Company be able to operate under Nicolau Award

The Court again states that it wants to get this to an enforceable and appealable form

Defendant wants an appealable Order ASAP

Discussion of whether a final and appealable Order can be issued pending the bifurcated damages phase

(About this point Seham cut-off Granneth and took over speaking in court)

Court doesn't believe that numbered item 4 is appropriate at this time because coercive relief is not yet appropriate. It is open for future consideration

Court plans to issue a permanent injunction along with a declaratory judgment

Defense claims that granting a remedy under numbered item 2 will cause enforcability and contempt issues moving forward, and sooner rather than later.

The Court will draft a permanent injunction and circulate it to counsel before entering that injunction.

Court tentatively sets damages phase of trial for 8/18/09 - 8/21/09

Potentially dispositive damages threshold issues to be addressed by an expedited summary judgment schedule. The Motion to be filed by 5/22/09, the Response by 6/1/09 and the Reply by 6/12/09

Court adjourns and counsel are free to travel. There will be e-mail of a draft of the Permanent Injunction and it should issue by 5/20/09

 

[theFLYonthewall]

Are you getting experience and seniority mixed up? Alot of pilots on the west may only have 10 years seniority with the company but may have flown and additional 10 years or so with a different company whch would make them the same level experience as their east counterpart..

And the 20 year East pilot would then have 30 years experience according to your timeline, they didn't go from high school to the cockpit either.

I never meant to imply they were inexperienced and unprofessional except for few I have run into in the past month who have been extremely rude, unprofessional and down right ignorant. I am in no way lumping everyone into that either because I was on a crew van the other morning with 2 very nice pilots who talked to every one of us and we had a very pleasant experience. When we got through security they shook hands with the East pilots and everyone went on their merry way.

 

[Kieran]

Folks, I've gone ahead and merged the USAPA verdict thread with the US Pilot thread. In lieu of opening a new thread, we'll let this one continue on just a bit more.

Obviously, this is a topic that will be certain to stir passion on both sides. PLEASE remember to keep it civil.