US Airways Pilots Labor Thread 9/19- 9/27..

[nic4us]

There is not going to be a "imagined or fabricated balance" of section 29's. When you get the letter (and you know who you are) your clock started on the postage date of the letter.
Procrastination results in "hasta-la-bye-bye" forever.

By the way, P......, (since I know you're now in lurking-mode)...obviously Parker confirmed the truth about a position you took recently about "receiving" the "letter"...and the "postage date of the notification" on section 29's...

Do you still want to talk about that?

No?

(he was here...then gone...)

Who's next? (Aqua?...how bout you, buddy?)

Feel lucky? No?...You move me by your rhetoric such that I feel a bowel movement is at hand. Those out west that feel "empowered" by Mr. Wake need to check themselves. This "fairness doctrine" that you are creating does not and never will trump the letter of "your law" (your contract)....regardless of any interim gains you receive by Mr. Wake.

When you get fired under section 29, be sure to shout this out when you leave your lawyers' office...(once you have written him a check to no avail)

Wow, I do not know where to start.

I guess I will begin with, who is P......? I checked last weeks thread and the first mention of P.....is in a response where you quoted me so I guess I will answere for P.......

Yes, it seems to have been determined that "date of letter" refers to the postage "date of letter". From that "date of letter" the pilot has 15 days to "remit" payment. That does not mean usapa has to RECEIVE payment within 15 days. If the pilot "remits" payment via pony express and usapa gets it in 6 months oh well!

So we have covered one paragraph in the nine that descibe how the association has to go about enforcing dues payment. Later chapters are quite a bit more specific and actually say within "five (5) calendar days from the date of the pilot's RECEIPT of notice described in sect 29.A.3" or "during the period in which a grievence.....the pilot shall not be discharged from the company nor lose any seniority or longevity rights..." the point is there are a dozens of ways usapa can screw this up, if they actually get someone fired and they had made a mistake look out.

Parker voiced his concern that the company did not think usapa followed the correct procedures and look what happened, no one got fired. As a matter of fact, I do not believe anyone has ever been fired for this, just starting now and treating the next person differently from the "LUCKY 4" as you call them , brings a question of discrimination into the mix.

Mr. Wake? Oh you mean Judge Wake, the Federal Judge who has warned the 9th circuit that usapa relys on subterfuge ( called usapa liars and cheats, ain't that great?)

 

[john john]

( called usapa liars and cheats, ain't that great?)

http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/movie_sounds/s...s_and_liars.wav

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hi, Aqua...

It's no problem paying under income that we are accustomed to...you forget, we've had this noose for several years now. There is NO wiggle-room on section 29's...you appear to be a smart guy...you should get this.

It's probably important for all West pilots to become members as 01-01-10 is only two months away. We need to be ready to combine votes with those on the East whose anger will be unleashed against those who sold the East on the path taken over the last two years, once the reality sets about snapbacks. Each captain has forfeited over a hundred K believing you blowhards. You guys have done more harm to this pilot group than Lorenzo and ALPA could ever hope to accomplish, combined. The West is just pulling up a chair, grabbing a bag of popcorn, and waiting for the fireworks come New Year. What's despicable is that the lies from your gang have cost older East pilots precious time and a lot of money, both of which they will never recover at this point.

Edit: oops....January 1st is three months away. Sorry. I'm just sort of anxious for what the New Year has in store for the angry gang within the East pilot group. It's going to be quite a show!

 

[Reed Richards]

Yes, it seems to have been determined that "date of letter" refers to the postage "date of letter". From that "date of letter" the pilot has 15 days to "remit" payment. That does not mean usapa has to RECEIVE payment within 15 days. If the pilot "remits" payment via pony express and usapa gets it in 6 months oh well!

Down South, we simply say "hold my beer, and watch THIS!"

You are doing a great disservice to the casual visitor here.

RR

 

[aquagreen73s]

Down South, we simply say "hold my beer, and watch THIS!"

You are doing a great disservice to the casual visitor here.

RR

He's right on and you know it, but let's just assume you are correct and that nic is all wet. Whatever disservice that would amount to is nothing compared the vast harm that you and your like have caused this pilot group. You sold the East on a legal argument that was untenable, and now you repeat and promote a promise of snapbacks which is even far more untenable than DOH. You guys had better realize that your opportunities to keep doubling down are just about over. The snapbacks will be it. Good luck dealing with the consequences; I wouldn't want to be you guys after the 9th rules and you lose handidly in the snapback grievance.

 

[Reed Richards]

Oh an one more thing, Doug nailed it in the Crew News by mentioning your "past practices", you know, those actions you have taken over the last five years which clearly indicate that East pilots themselves didn't believe snapbacks would occur, otherwise why would you all be negotiating for pay cuts?

Hold on Aqua..where did you come up with 5 years? USAPA has had its plate full with Section 29, Fuel School, and probably the best ever accident in the history of aviation for less than 18 months. We are slowly cleaning up the mess that was once ALPA, you know..the same union J Mack and gang also tried (with Seham by the way,) and failed, to throw off your property. Other than succeeding, the only difference is we are paying our legal bills.

Despite posts to the contrary here on this forum, USAPA has been aware of the pay issue for a long time. Just because ALPA kept its members in the dark as to the ramifications of their own contract does not mean we inherit their failure. Where else might that logic play out?

Just as everything else, the results will not be dependent upon the number of negative (or positive) posts on a forum.

RR

 

[Phoenix]

.. Lorenzo and ALPA could ever hope to accomplish, combined. ..

Wow. :blink: Thats pretty harsh.. putting ALPA with Lornezo. Even an East guy probably wouldn't put ALPA that low. Easy there.. step back from the bottle.

 

[HPDriver]

He can simply comply with the language as interpreted by USAPA,

All that leverage USAPA has makes this an option for sure.

 

[luvn737s]

Hi, Aqua...

It's no problem paying under income that we are accustomed to...you forget, we've had this noose for several years now. There is NO wiggle-room on section 29's...you appear to be a smart guy...you should get this.

P...... is geting his "wake-up" call...are you next?

I can check your file if I need to....what do you think?

Why don't you send a note to Preston for me...? The note reads as follows: "we have you"...and you know it. AB CA in PHX...until you pay up...then unemployed, but with AB 320 experience.


Play all you want, sir...but you are in the proverbial crosshairs....and you are on the business end of the gun.

Please let me apologize in advance for any giggling you may hear when this little nugget is read back to you in court as Exhibit A. But if in the future it can be proven that selective terminations were permitted, I would not want my "name" (which could readily be subpoenaed) attached to a posting like this.

Please go on. Don't let me stop you.

 

[ableoneable]

Hi, Aqua...

It's no problem paying under income that we are accustomed to...you forget, we've had this noose for several years now. There is NO wiggle-room on section 29's...you appear to be a smart guy...you should get this.

P...... is geting his "wake-up" call...are you next?

I can check your file if I need to....what do you think?

Why don't you send a note to Preston for me...? The note reads as follows: "we have you"...and you know it. AB CA in PHX...until you pay up...then unemployed, but with AB 320 experience.


Play all you want, sir...but you are in the proverbial crosshairs....and you are on the business end of the gun.

Wow,

That was pretty stupid.

It looks like V1 Cut is not satisfied with just losing union suits, he wants to start writing checks on his personal account.

Please keep up the stupidity USAPA corps.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Wow, That was pretty stupid. It looks like V1 Cut is not satisfied with just losing union suits, he wants to start writing checks on his personal account. Please keep up the stupidity USAPA corps.

No need to say please; they'll surely keep it up til the very end. I just can't wait to hear them trying to spin the snapback loss to a seething group of pilots that are $100k poorer thanks to the false promises of Cleary and gang. This is going to get good. Pull up a chair and enjoy!

 

[traderjake]

Play all you want, sir...but you are in the proverbial crosshairs....and you are on the business end of the gun.

How many pilots has USAPA gotten fired so far? Until you nail your first pilot it's just another empty USAPA promise.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Down South, we simply say "hold my beer, and watch THIS!"

You are doing a great disservice to the casual visitor here.

RR

RR, you are so right about the casual visitor.....I'm one of those pesky people. This forum is open for all the world to see and what many of us see is that the West is sarcastic and downright nasty at times. The West has a magic crystal ball that tells them they will WIN. Win what?

I would be embarrassed to awake in the morning and read my own posts were I one of them! The West has beaten its old drum for what seems like forever but they don't know how the courts will rule anymore than I do and I don't have the foggiest.

I don't read here much anymore because it is the same ol' same ol'. From the inception of USAPA, the West has been obstructionist and done whatever they could do to thwart THEIR duly legitimate union. I am very bored by the West's mantra. It is old and it is wrong.

 

[cleardirect]

RR, you are so right about the casual visitor.....I'm one of those pesky people. This forum is open for all the world to see and what many of us see is that the West is sarcastic and downright nasty at times. The West has a magic crystal ball that tells them they will WIN. Win what?

I would be embarrassed to awake in the morning and read my own posts were I one of them! The West has beaten its old drum for what seems like forever but they don't know how the courts will rule anymore than I do and I don't have the foggiest.

I don't read here much anymore because it is the same ol' same ol'. From the inception of USAPA, the West has been obstructionist and done whatever they could do to thwart THEIR duly legitimate union. I am very bored by the West's mantra. It is old and it is wrong.

Old and wrong. Well examining what we have said from the beginning we have been correct. Final and binding means final and binding. A jury and federal judge now say so. Integrity does matter. No one can argue against that. Living up to ones word is a matter of integrity.

Yes usapa is the legal union but that does not make it legitimate. The purpose of it’s inception was illegitimate. To get out of arbitration and to disadvantage the west pilots. See the judge’s findings of fact document. That is what he said.

So yes the west has been obstructing usapa from doing what usapa was designed to do. Disadvantage the west. Plus as members it is our legal right to oppose a direction that we disagree with if the union is going in the wrong direction.

You are right that none of us now what the courts will do just like we did not know what Nicolau was going to do. If the east MC had taken that attitude a little more seriously maybe we would not be in this position. If the MC had realized that DOH was not going to happen instead of assuming that it had to be that way. When Nicolau told the MC that they were not going to get DOH then was the time to compromise, not now.

We do not know what the court will rule but we can take an educated guess. When we first went to court DFR’s are hard to win but we knew we had a good case. Better than average, so something over 50%. After we began to see the filings and the legal theories from Seham those odds started going up. In the end the west prevailed.

Now in the ninth circuit the statistics speak for themselves. The court of appeal does not rule on the merits of the case or the outcome. They rule on how the judge did his job. Judge Wake does his job very well. The statistics in the ninth are that 95% of the time they uphold or agree with the judge and jury. So we don’t know but the chances are 95% on the west side that we will win this case. The odds get even longer to even see the SCOTUS.

You may not agree with the west “mantra†but we have been right more time than we have been wrong. One last thing, before you start pointing finger at the west about how nasty some posts have been. Take a look at some of the east posts. Figure out how many east posters have seen the corn field. Being right tends to reduce the stress and keep the posts reasonable where some east posts are shrill and downright vicious and nutty.

We don’t now how the court will rule but we have a very good idea. Besides even in that 5% usapa wins the appeal. It only sends it back from a retrial before judge Wake. He knows the facts. A win on appeal does not end this in USAPA’s favor. It only continues the delay further.

 

[nic4us]

Down South, we simply say "hold my beer, and watch THIS!"

You are doing a great disservice to the casual visitor here.

RR

With the appropriate apologies to the casual visitor, I would like to state that I am in no way trying to encourage West pilots to play games with section 29. What I am trying to communicate is that due to past practices and actual content, section 29 is not what some posters seem to believe. It is a mechanism for the association to enforce collection of fees, and that is all. It is not a loophole usapa can use to get someone fired to set an example. It is not a means for a usapa rep to get even for a nasty e-mail from a West objector. It is not a vehicle for usapa to use to terminate a vocal West detractor.

In the most recent debacle, usapa wanted to refund the check they had already cashed, from one of the four they sought to terminate, because he had remitted payment past the 15 days. What a can of worms that opens.

Bottom line, section 29 describes a chain of events that must be followed for the association to enforce collection from a delinquent pilot. It is not as cut and dry as some would believe, and if the association or the company mess up, it would be very unfortunate for all three parties.

Out West we do not impose on our friend, nor do we seek to boast. We simply set our beer down, accomplish our task and once successful announce "Drinks are on me!"